John Piper has delivered a provocative message on abortion and race. A startling statistic: African-American women make up 13 percent of the female population, but account for 36 percent of abortions. Latino-American women, who also make up only 13 percent of the female population, account for 20 percent of abortions.
If you care about the unborn and/or racial equality, we strongly commend this message to you. You can read, listen, or watch it here.
When is Abortion Racism?
by John Piper, DesiringGod.orgMy aim is that just as once even though the Supreme Court in the Dred Scott case of 1857 held that Black slaves were property without rights as free persons, yet today we view that as unthinkable; so also even though the Supreme Court in the Roe v. Wade case of 1973 did not give the unborn the rights of free persons, nevertheless the day may come when that too is viewed as unthinkable.
Racism might—and often did—result in the killing of innocent humans; in our history, it often did. But abortion always results in the killing of innocent humans. Between 1882 and 1968, 3,446 Black people were lynched in America. Today more Black babies are killed by white abortionists every three days than all who were lynched in those years.
I have not watched the video yet, but John Piper is an awesome speaker and writer. I have his book “Don’t Waste Your Life” and it is awesome. Abortion and Racism need to stop now though! I think for some students racism is harder to get away from because their parents were born in that time and they have a big influence. But, it needs to change!
If playing the race card will speed the abolition of abortion, then by all means play the race card, Mr. Piper. Bravo.
I am personally pro-choice. I have no right to intervene in someone else’s life to inject a religious opinion. Because of this, I find myself alienated from many other Christians. I also can’t wrap my head around the soul beginning at conception, I just cannot logically ascribe a soul to something that is incapable of cognitive thought. It’s a personal thing. I believe the soul begins at birth. It makes more logical sense to me.
Also, this article makes no sense whatsoever to me. He uses to verses later from Ephesians don’t seem to fit at all. I do not like biblical speakers because of these reasons. It all seems to be the same.
Just my 2 cents. Please don’t flame, because I probably don’t need to hear it.
The problem with this argument is that women of all races have abortions, given that fact where is the racism?
All the “statistics” tell me is that African-American and Latino women are more likely to have an abortion. Racism is an underlying cause of this – it’s easier to put a white baby up for (successful) adoption, but what, are the abortion clinics picking their clientele on the basis of race? “No, ma’am, we’ve filled our quota of white women for the month, you’ll have to go somewhere else.” Please, give me a break.
Cody, I would like you to think about something. Imagine a preterm baby, say a month premature, which is born sucessfully. According to your theory, that baby is then ‘assigned’ a soul. Now imagine a baby of the same age, a 7-8 month old fetus, which is ripped apart in the womb. This baby is viable. It has a full human DNA. It hears sounds in the womb. It can suck its tiny thumb. This baby may not be able to ‘think’ as we conceive thinking, but it experiences excruciating pain. (Notice the CROSS in excruciating. I wonder what is more painful, crucifixion or being ripped apart?) Now according to your theory, one baby has a soul, is a real person who deserves protection as a human being, and one baby is not.
Please, I’m not ‘flaming’ at you as a person. I don’t believe you are wicked or anything like that. I just don’t think you’ve thought this issue through like you should.
Now, move the age of the fetus earlier, to a fetus-baby that is six months old. If we agree that the seven-month old is human, where do we draw the line? The six month old is human as well. Under this reasoning, a fetus at any age is a human. People like to say “A woman can do what she likes with her own body.” In fact, a baby inside a woman is not her own body. Its cells are not her cells, because it has a different genetic code. Would we say that a woman can do what she likes with her two-year old? Up to a point, yes, but we wouldn’t allow her to abuse or kill it! In the same way, she can’t do what she likes with the baby inside her. She can choose to give it away, but she cannot choose to kill it.
I understand that it is hard to imagine a newly fertilized embryo as a person, but please go along with me. First let me point out that an embryo has a unique human DNA and will become a full-grown human under the right circumstances. Second, I think your idea of a soul is mistaken. Do we define a soul as some kind of spirit that gives us ‘cognitive thought’ abilities? If so, is a mentally retarded person less of a ‘human soul’ than the average person because he cannot think as well? There is a principle from the Bible which defines a human and a human soul. It is the concept of ‘Imago Dei’. We believe that a person, no matter what state he is in, is ‘made in the image of God.’ Because of this, we believe that a person like Terry Schiavo has an innate worth regardless of her mental ability. (This is a tricky case I know– people were led to think Terry was on life support about to die, when really she was responsive and not in a so-called ‘vegetable’ state.) We believe that the mentally retarded are people, not items. We believe that the value of a child comes not in whether it is ‘wanted’ by its mother, but by the fact that God himself is knitting that child together in its mother’s womb. In the same way, an embryo is ‘made in the image of God’. We cannot know the mysteries of the soul, but many believe that embryos do have souls, an individuality given them by God.
Those embryos and fetuses that do die go straight back to their Father in heaven. Is that such a tragedy for the baby? Maybe not, but it is a tragedy for us. Each baby is a gift from God, and those that close themselves to God’s gifts close themselves to God’s love and hurt themselves in the process. When we kill someone made in God’s image, we kill something precious to God himself. All of us reject God and His gifts at some point; it is a marvelous gift that He won’t give up on us! He sent us His son, the best gift in the world, whom we chose to kill, but His identifying with us can bring us back to the God we have rejected.
God bless you, Clay, and may you one day be able to receive God’s gifts.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
P.S.
I’ve given you the background to most Christian conservatives’ belief against abortion and for life. But I’d like to point out to you that some of these reasons still hold strong whether or not you believe in ‘Imago Dei.’ Strongest to me is the fact that a person of whatever age has a human DNA.
on racism & abortion
Its not so much that abortion clinics kill babies based on their race, its that they target minorities because they can make money off of them. It’s racial inequality at its worst: taking advantage of a minority not out of malice but out of greed. We object that it’s harder for poor minorites to get education. That’s a racial inequality that isn’t based on racism, but on financial status and the fact that minorities live in inner-cities where they can’t get good primary and secondary education.
Well, I’m also a pro-choice Christian (Cody, you’re not the only one!), in the purest sense of the word: I think abortion is horrible and I would be thrilled if there were never another abortion performed, but I think the CHOICE should remain legal and safe. I have a philosophical problem with the government telling women what they can and cannot do with their own bodily organs, including sustaining the life of another human (and I agree that the fetus is a human). The government couldn’t order Person B. to give up one of his kidneys for A., for instance, even if A. would die without the transplant. We might all agree that B. should, and I’m sure he would, make this sacrifice for A.; regardless, the government doesn’t require him to. Abortion isn’t any different.
That aside: Pro-lifers often want to claim that Planned Parenthood, NARAL, and other abortion- and contraceptive-rights organizations are racist, as though they’re deliberating targeting African-American and Latino/a babies for abortion. This is misleading and disingenuous. Yes, African-American women have abortions in disproportionate numbers compared to white women, but it’s more likely that the difference is based, as Phoebe Joy states, “on financial status and the fact that minorities live in inner-cities where they can’t get good primary and secondary education,” rather than on a deliberate racist conspiracy on the part of Planned Parenthood. In fact, the statistic is indicative, more than anything, on the need for social justice and education for ALL Americans, not only the white and privileged, to break the cycle of poverty. Universal healthcare and more funding for schools in low-income neighborhoods would be a GREAT way to start, and I bet would result in a dramatic decrease in abortion rates; let’s treat the illness, not the symptoms.
If African American and Latina women are disproportionately represented among women who choose to abort, and this means that supporting legal abortion is racist, does that mean that supporting the reduction of welfare also is racist, given that minority women are disproportionately represented on the welfare rolls as well? (Of course, one can receive full welfare benefits only if one is a single mother — so aborting pregnancies means one won’t end up on welfare.) If y’all are Reagan and Gingrich fans, you might want to figure out where you stand on the abortion versus welfare problem. Some feminists are only conditionally in favor of legal abortion; they think that once society guarantees all pregnant women the resources to complete their pregnancies and assure good futures for their children, there no longer will be a need for abortion. The closer we come to such a society, the fewer women will choose abortion.
@Cody/Jessica,
Excepting rape, a woman chooses whether or not to have intercourse. Simply point, that choice should not be made if there is no willingness to carry a child. If a woman makes that choice, and becomes pregnant, the choice cannot be reversed without consequences. There is a responsibility to bear that life to birth.
So it seems to me, in simplistic terms, that the crux of the issue surrounding abortion is whether or not a woman should be able to shirk that responsibility, given that doing so involves taking the life of a child.
Note this is merely how I see it from a logical point of view.
The only problem with your comparison between the kidney transplant situation and abortion, Jessica, is that B. isn’t killing A. or having him killed. Abortion is a matter of willfully sacrificing an unborn child’s life–murdering that child. Not saving someone from a burning house is different than deliberately putting someone in that house and locking the door.
P.S. Cody, if you haven’t read Psalm 139:1-16 lately, I would recommend it to you. 🙂
If abortion were to one day be eliminated how would we as christians respond to all the mothers. This was something the North had to deal with, they abolished slavery but they themselves were not waiting to welcome the black man up North. How would we as christians react when unmarried women at church or school turn up pregnant. Would we support them. If one day abortions is abolished and I pray one day it is, those women will not need condemnation, they will need our support. Are we willing to give it as Jesus would give it?
-Miss Christies daughter
I second JoAnna’s sentiments. Jessica, you say that the government shouldn’t be able to dictate what a woman can or cannot do with her own body. I agree. But abortion involves more than just the mother. Whether we like it or not; whether we think the soul begins at birth or conception, none of us can say that the fetus would not develop into a baby. We all know beyond the shadow of a doubt that when a woman is pregnant—barring complications or abortion—a living, breathing, God-given human child will be born. One that will grow up and perhaps do great things. God knows us before we are conceived and has a plan for us. It’s just wrong to kill one’s own child before they even have a chance to live.
Hmm. Let’s see if maybe we can figure out why. Going into the main point of my child psychology class, blacks etc. are the majority of the people on the lower end of the income bracket, especially those earning below a living wage or living below the poverty level. Economically, then, it might make more sense to them to have an abortion. Another thing: if you’ve ever seen even part of a black rap video or flipped through a popular magazine–well, what’s expected of girls is made pretty clear. They generally adhere to the standards of their environment, and frankly a lot of them are in that kind of environment. Many of the girls aren’t working and haven’t been given any kind of parenting model. If they don’t want to be parents, but still are expected to behave that particular way, abortion seems like a pretty reasonable option.
I agree that abortion is bad, and that during the operation a baby is killed. Unfortunately, if you’re going to complain about the result, you need to take a pretty close look at the cause. If women weren’t getting pregnant without wanting to, they wouldn’t need abortion. And the reasons above aren’t everything. There’s tocophobia, for instance. Yes, to help with these, we do need to support the mothers more. If they’re treated as pariahs, how many options do they have?
Outlawing abortion would be kind of tricky. Child porn and (in most states) brothels are also illegal, but are still around. If people really want to do something, they’ll find a way to do it.
I’d say that’s my two cents, but I’ll have to make it a nickel.
PG, Jessica, Anna, et all: Your arguments are frighteningly similar to the arguments made against the abolition of slavery. We know there are underlying economic and sociological forces that drive and sustain the abortion industry. We know that outlawing it wouldn’t be as simple as flipping a switch. The same was true for slavery, perhaps even to greater extent. But if you recognize that abortion kills innocent human life, then for God’s sake, realize that the economic and social change must accompany, not precede, its abolition. How long would slavery have endured if we had waited until it was economically and socially feasible to outlaw it?
If you truly care, put your efforts behind organizations like the Pregnancy Resource Centers, which provide free help and support both during and after pregnancy, for as long as the mother needs it. Planned Parenthood and NARAL are not allies for those with only tentative support for abortion.
Some…interesting discourse here. It makes one think. Just for your information, I am heartily pro-life.
Cody: “I believe the soul begins at birth. It makes more logical sense to me.”
-If only things that made logical sense were acceptable, where would the miracles of Jesus – or the entire Bible be? What about water changing into wine? That surely isn’t logical. Or what about a donkey talking to Balaam? That definately did not make logical sense. Was Jesus only Jesus after he was born? What about when he was in his mother’s womb? If he wasn’t Jesus then…who was he?
Jessica: “I think abortion is horrible and I would be thrilled if there were never another abortion performed, but I think the CHOICE should remain legal and safe. I have a philosophical problem with the government telling women what they can and cannot do with their own bodily organs, including sustaining the life of another human (and I agree that the fetus is a human).”
-It is true that the government shouldn’t be able to MAKE women do anything, however, if there is a choice that can be made and one side of it kills a life, and one side of it nurtures and cares for a life…I believe that the “side” which takes a life should be completely shunned and should really not even be considered as a choice.
Our lives are one of our most precious gifts from God, that we must steward wisely, like everything else we are given…however, unlike many other things we are given, we are also responsible for others’ lives. Having an abortion is almost the same thing as killing an innocent adult person who was tied up in a chair and who was also unable to speak for himself.
THAT would be murder. What would make killing an unborn baby that maybe isn’t quite fully developed yet (but would be, if let live) any different than murder?
Anyway, I’m not picking on anyone, or trying to “flame”…I am just trying to bring another side…that maybe you could read in humility of mind…and ponder. I’m not saying you have to immediately believe everything I say.
I think it’s interesting that in 16 comments—unless I’ve missed it—there hasn’t been one reference to the FATHERS of these “unborn children.” A lot of pro-lifers seem to be equally interested in preserving fetuses and punishing sexually active women.
I think that in the near future, well if someone does try this it needs to be with TONS of prayer. Willing Familys from churches or just Christian people could maybe partner with an orginization that matches expectant mothers with familys/people and they could take her in and give her a roof over her head, food, a place to sleep and then after they have the baby either give the child up for adoption or yea just help her get back onto her feet after carrying this precious child and all that. Maybe find her a decent job ect. Just a thought…
This is not a flame, just a few thoughts with all brotherly (sisterly?) love and humility….Whether I believe life begins at conception or at birth has no bearing on what the facts are, because I can sincerely believe something that is not true. (I happen to believe that life begins at conception.) This is not one of those cases about which we have the liberty to choose what we think; we must turn to the Bible and I think Psalm 139 is pretty good evidence for life at conception (not to mention medical knowledge about heartbeats in the womb and such). Pro-choice Christians, please, seek God in this matter. Unborn babies cannot defend themselves and God will one day demand an accounting for their blood.
We shouldn’t just care about the babies, though; we need to have compassion for the mothers as well, and really anyone involved. Abortion raises the risk of developing certain cancers, and often causes devastating depression. All of these consequences far outweigh any “inconvenience” a child might be. I’m not quite sure, so can someone tell me if many couples adopt from foreign countries because the process is easier or because there aren’t very many babies available here for adoption?
In any case, abortion is a result of our me-first society — I want to be able to do what I like without worrying about the consequences. As Christians, we know that’s wrong. Several years ago I heard that for every person born (in America, I think) since 1973, another had been aborted. Fifty percent of all babies. Murdered. That is tragedy.
I watched this video a few days ago and I was really confused with what Mr. Piper is trying to say. That abortion is racism? Mr. Piper also says “the minority” are the ones getting abortions and then assumes those are black women. While it is true that black people tend to be of a lesser income (although certainly not always the case, look at Condoleezza Rice) is it really fare to say that white abortion doctors are racist? If anybody has any insight on this I would really appreciate it.
Thanks for the question, Elizabeth. No, Mr. Piper is not saying that abortion supporters or abortion providers are racists. Let me go ahead and share a quote that Mr. Piper read, which perhaps you missed when you watched the sermon. It’s from Randy Alcorn, a personal friend of Brett’s and mine:
“I do not believe that most people who support abortion rights are racists, any more than I believe there are no racists among pro-lifers. I am simply suggesting that regardless of motives, a closer look at both the history and present strategies of the pro-choice movement suggests that ‘abortion for the minorities’ may not serve the cause of equality as much as [it does] the cause of supremacy for the healthy, wealthy and white.”
Does that make sense?
Alex, what is the ‘abortion for the minorities’ thing about? I’ve never heard that term before. I thought any woman could get an abortion.
For those commenting, if you did not read the message in its entirety, I would heartily suggest that you do so. It’s definitely worth the time!
First off, I would put forth that abortion is wrong, to say the least. If you have any hesitancy to support the abolishment of abortion, please click on the links that Mr. Piper provides in his message(concerning the details of abortion). I know specifically what happens in the murder of an infant in the womb, and it is horrific. It is an act that fills the devil with utmost pleasure, and, unfortunately, it is completely legal.
As far as the idea of racist abortion, that is exactly what Margaret Sanger did. She had clinics placed in largely minority-populated areas to especially encourage the women of minority groups to get an abortion. She was a master of “Eugenics”(the breeding of a “master race”). She succeeded in greatly reducing minory population, and such racism continues today. Many abortionist target minority groups in abortion, so as to reduce their numbers through the elimination of the not-yet-born. I believe that both racism and abortion should be eliminated with utmost severity and thorough reenforcement. Granted, the human sin nature would struggle for(and likely find) ways to continue these evil practices, but the result of legal elimination would result in the deliverance of millions of lives.
Wow. The first thing this reminds me of is how far into that last days we are! I can’t recall the address, but I recently read a scripture which stated that a sign of the last days would be parents (mothers specifically) lacking natural affection towards their children. That statement must have seemed so absurd back then, as children were perhaps considered the most lofty blessing attainable! The barren women would oft times rather die than live to know she couldn’t bear a child! Now women (willingly) sacrifice their great blessing for what, their ‘right’!?
As to the article likening abortion to racism; let’s face it, prejudices still do exist. As a black teen living in a predominatly white (‘Christian’, might I add) community, I’ve been the subject of racial discrimination. I find it extremely difficult to believe that we (Believers) will be able to end this horrendous practice unless we are able to walk in true love. For we are following a God who IS love. Of course I’m pro-life, but when will we (Christians) get our acts together and live by an example to show that all of the poor babies (if they were here) would be being loved and accepted?!
How grieved God must be. Amazing treasure which He hand formed, carefully thought up and sent to earth; cures to be found, books to be written, art to be created, music to be composed, ect. lay dormant and completely usued in the graves of the millions of brilliant ones who did not have a chance to see the light of day.
Talk about ‘unatural affection’. Peoplw of God, where is the love?!
Anna: I believe Mr. Alcorn was referencing the argument of some pro-choicers, who say that restricting abortion would be unfair to the minorities, because they need it most.
Studies have indicated that almost 2/3rds of Plan Parenthood abortion clinics are in neighborhhoods where there are more blacks then whites. I can honestly say that this is true in our area.
Martha Sanger…founder of Plan Parenthood, was a racist. You can go to this website http://www.dianedew.com/sanger.htm and read some her quotes on the issue.
I did not see the video, but I saw pictures. I could not watch the horrible torture of these innocent babies being torn apart limb by limb, when they did nothing to be put to a agonizing death. No matter how far along they are in their mother’s womb, whether they have developed nerve cells, or if they only the size of a drop of rain, or even if they are being born, THE BABIES DO NOT DESERVE TO DIE!! Whose fault is it, that the woman because pregnant? It’s her OWN fault! She made the choice to sleep outside of marriage. In the matter of rape however, in my opinion, though she had no choice, the baby within her is still human, still a life. If she doesn’t want to keep it, she could at least give it up for adoption, where the baby could be raised by loving parents who cannot have a child of their own.
Whenever I think of abortion, whenever I hear stories of women who had __ abortions in their life, I just want to cry. All of those innocent babies, dead…
I want to tell the world, “YOUR MOTHER LET YOU LIVE, WHY CAN’T YOU LET YOUR CHILD LIVE? IT’S NOT FAIR! YOU MADE THE CHOICE! YOU ARE A MURDERER…DON’T YOU CARE?”
-TO BE CONTINUED
Amanda,
I don’t think we can put the entire blame on the woman. Men should have to take responsibility for their actions as well. It does take two to make a baby. Both are in sin if they are sleeping outside of marriage. Both are responsible and at fault
To the women who have had abortions…they need mercy and grace just like the rest of us sinners. We must remember that Christ came to die for all, even those who have recieved abortions. There is forgiveness at the cross for them too.
“Whose fault is it, that the woman because pregnant? It’s her OWN fault! She made the choice to sleep outside of marriage.”
As Erin rightly pointed out–what about the man? Men are not passive beings seduced by selfish women; to suggest that pregnancy is the fault of the woman is really disrespectful to men. He could have said no.
Comments like that really emphasize how much of the pro-life movement and its rhetoric is really about punishing sexually active women.
Amanda,
First off, all of us deserve to die. Doesn’t mean we should kill ourselves or anything, but if we didn’t deserve to die, Jesus would never have had to die for us. What’s deserved isn’t usually a good complaint.
Another thing–you’re concentrating on the baby. Yes, it’s tragic when a baby is aborted. They are human, they are alive, and then they are killed. Calling the mothers murderers, though, that’s not really necessary. The name might be correct, but even if the correct word for someone is “slut” that doesn’t mean we should call them that.
Most of the time, yes, the mothers do care. There are support groups for women who have had an abortion and later regretted it, and those don’t pop up for just a half dozen people. Many women, if they had the chance to go back, would do things differently. It’s very hard on them to know what they’ve done; adding to that and blaming them, even where blame is due, is hardly Christian.
And some women who know that what’s inside them is a live human might still be willing to have an abortion. There’s something known as tocophobia–fear of pregnancy / childbirth. A fear that’s strong enough can easily invite contemplation of suicide, which action would hardly be good for the baby’s health. There are treatments, but people react to treatments different ways, so it’s quite possible for the question to come down to: one death or two? (Note: this is not likely to happen in the case of mutual consent; rape is more likely.)
Alex,
Yes, thanks that does help.
I don’t understand why he chose to to focus the entire message around this issue, but I guess that’s his choice.
People should be careful when refering to black people as “the minority” it sounds kind of degrading.
It would truly be amazing if one day the United States would outlaw abortions like Mr. Piper says.
God bless,
Elizabeth
This is my story…..I’m hispanic and got pregnant when I was 17 (a senior in high school) by an African American. I was raised in a christian family my whole life and went to a sovereign grace church every Sunday. I had always been pro-life (gone to marches with my parents when I was little; handed out tracks, etc). But when I became pregnant, I was terrified. What would my parents say and do? What about all my friends? Would my boyfriend leave me? Would I be a single mom? Would I be a good mom? I told my boyfriend I was pregnant and thinking about not keeping the baby (I really wasn’t, but I didn’t want him to feel trapped and I wanted to see his real feelings). He cried and said that he wanted to keep the baby. Once I knew he was sincere, I told him I was keeping it, but was really scared. We kept it a secret for 2 months. I would throw up every morning, with the radio blasting in the bathroom so my mom wouldn’t hear me. I started to wear very baggy clothes. I would pretend to get my period so no one would ask questions, but my mom, having lived with a sister who got pregnant as a teenager, knew something wasn’t right. She prayed that whatever it was she was feeling would come to the light. Right around Christmas time I was too sick to go to school and it wasn’t going away. I told my boyfriend that we had to tell my parents soon. He came over to the house and had a talk with my parents. It was very scary and very emotional. My dad took it the hardest. My boyfriend then told his parents, who are not believers. Then our parents met to discuss our situation. We knew abortion was not the answer but my parents weren’t sure if I was ready to be a mom. Adoption came up but I really thought that I could be a good mom. So, we decided to keep the baby. It wasn’t an easy decision by any means. My mom withdrew from me for most of the pregnancy. The race issue also came up. But through it all, the ladies in my church just loved me and cared for me like never before. Because my mom had withdrawn, I felt alone and scared, but these ladies really pulled me through. I never once felt judged or condemned.
Once my son was born (right after I graduated), everything changed. My son became the center of my mom’s world. He helped heal the wounds of racism in my family. A year after his birth, I married his dad. We have been married for 10 years and are now expecting our 4th child soon. I know that this isn’t how it normally turns out, but we are very thankful that this was God’s will.
Now that my son is getting older, he has many questions for us. He has said that he thought you were supposed to get married first and then have kids. He wants to know why that didn’t happen with our family. We explained to him that we disobeyed God and sinned and because of that, my pregnancy was one of our consequences. We assure him that his is a gift from God. He has started to thank me recently for keeping him even though I was scared and it would have been easier not to have him. My choice to accept my consequences resulted in the birth of a beautiful son. My situation also helped several of my friends decided not to have an abortion, even though they ended up being single moms. They have said that although it was hard on their families in the beginning, they wouldn’t change their decision.
Without the church, I don’t think I could have gone through this as well as I did. So, next time you find out someone is pregnant, instead of judging them, befriend them. They are probably frightened and feeling alone.
I hope that my story has encouraged and given hope to those who read it. Not all teenage pregnancies end up as tragedies. If we can’t find forgiveness in the church, where can we? Maybe if girls weren’t so afraid of being judged, the decision to keep their baby would be much easier.
To Joanne and Jessica:
You bring up a very good point, that the pregnancy is equally the man’s fault; however, this is the reason why the pro-lifers are NOT just “punishing sexually active women.” On the contrary, they are saying that the men should face up to their responsibility. Abortion is the easy way out for the man. Why do some men support abortion? Because they care about women? I don’t think so. If a women has an abortion, the man pays a minimal amount of money and gets let off the hook of taking care of his child, while it is the woman that is faced with the many physical and emotional risks of the abortion.
Also, while the fetus is its own person and not the body of the woman, even if it were, people cannot always do whatever they want with their own bodies. Think about laws against suicide and drug use.
AJM: There are many organizations that provide material assistance to pregnant mothers. Offhand, I can think of Project Gabriel, Catholic Charities, and many local pregnancy centers that offer free housing, maternity visits, food, clothing, baby items, ect. to women with crisis pregnancies.
Amanda: It is not right to say that in all cases the woman is a murderer. Not all women know that it is a baby, and regardless, there is a lot of pressure put on them by parents, boyfriends, and others to have an abortion. Don’t try to judge others unless you have been in that situation yourself.
I heartily agree with Rosa Dei’s comment – as well as many others of you!
Jessica said: “Whose fault is it, that the woman because pregnant? It’s her OWN fault! She made the choice to sleep outside of marriage.”
I must say to your comment, Jessica, that not all abortions come from sleeping with someone “outside of marriage”…or even that the woman made a choice to WANT to.
My mom had an abortion before she became a Christian. She is very sorry about it now and wishes that she hadn’t…I’m not going to go into details – but it was through no fault of her own that the pregnancy came about.
Amazing Grace:
That is a powerful testimony. Yes life can be hard, and we do make mistakes, but grace covers, and forgives. God can turn a bad situation into something beautiful, like healing the wounds of racism.
My mom has a similer story to Tai… Only now she has adopted 5 children from Liberia, who I watch playing in the other room right now, as well as having 7 biological children including me!
God’s grace is so good! And my mom knows she is forgiven.
http://www.theahlersfamily.com
It has been very interesting reading through these comments.
I have to say, that I am not pro-choice as the word is usually applied, but I am pro-choice in a way. A woman has a choice to become pregnant, besides the case of rape, and she has a choice between putting her baby up for adoption and raising her baby herself. A child, no matter how small, is still human, is still made in the image of God. If the fetus is not human, then what were we before we were born? When were you concieved? The life of any child is precious, we are horrified when we hear of mothers drowning their children, and yet abortion isn’t usually given a second glace.
As for the argument that a woman is free to do what she wishes with her body, well, its not her body. The fetus has a genetic code separate from anyone else’s. The baby is induvidual and unique. I could cite what that baby could one day do as a reason for pro-life, but how do we know that baby wouldn’t simply become a murderer or something like it? But that does not negate the fact that the child is human, and is created by God. We are called to love our neighbour, and I think the unborn of the world count as our neighbour.
About the fathers, there will be a time when ‘the heart of the fathers are turned to their children, and the children to their fathers’. I can’t remember the reference of that verse, sorry for being unprepared, but I know its in there. It is true, often the focus is put on the woman, and the father is not even thought of. But the goal of pro-lifers isn’t to ‘punish sexually active women’ it is to help them.
I hope this made sense to everyone.
I think abortion is bad. Just becouse you have a problem child does not mean they are not created in the image of God. All children are. Abortion is totally wrong and should be to a christian.
one word
adoption
I recently read Wendy Shalit’s “A Return to Modesty”, and she makes an interesting point at the end of her essay on just this topic. Allow me to paraphrase: Just imagine what a diffence could be made in the world if all women demanded that men have jobs and rings before allowing them to sleep with them? If we went back to a culture where the man wasn’t a “man” unless he was a provider, and the women told him so? Honestly, the impetus for most cases of abortion lies in the woman’s financial vulnerability after that the father of her baby has fled. I charge every woman in this forum to stick to her guns about marriage and true manhood and help turn the culture of irreponsible men around. We have the power—and I would add, this power especially needs to be used in the black community, where more than 70% of children are born out of wedlock.
Alex,
“But if you recognize that abortion kills innocent human life, then for God’s sake, realize that the economic and social change must accompany, not precede, its abolition. How long would slavery have endured if we had waited until it was economically and socially feasible to outlaw it?”
Actually, de facto slavery continued to exist well after the Civil War due to the complete failure to prepare for its abolition. As another commenter pointed out, Northerners were not prepared to help the freed slaves to the degree necessary, and so for another century after the 13th Amendment, slaves and their descendants were segregated, uneducated, impoverished, and lynched. Benevolent slaveowners who recognized the humanity of their slaves were kinder to them than racists who were still torturing and murdering black boys for the crime of whistling at a white woman into the 1950s.
We cannot be a post-abortion society until women who are afraid to finish their pregnancies know that they will be supported in it. Given that some purportedly pro-life states prosecute women for homicide if the mother’s substance addiction causes birth defects or death to the baby, a woman addicted to crack who finds herself pregnant is likely to find abortion a preferable alternative to the double risk that she will give birth to a dead or brain-damaged baby, and that the state will prosecute her for drug abuse, negligence and/or homicide. These are, of course, the women most likely to turn to “back alley” abortions if abortion is made illegal.
Your belief that change must “accompany” abolition is naive. Making abortion illegal, and thus unsafe and unregulated, only works if all social and legal influence pushes women *toward* completing their pregnancies. Indeed, at that level of change, women will voluntarily abandon abortion themselves rather than being forced into it by the law. The problem with your and others’ comparisons to slavery is that the slave’s and the owner’s interests are necessarily antithetical. The slave wishes to be free; the owner wishes to keep him enslaved. In contrast, the fetus is not really capable of wishing anything (except of course to avoid pain, as any sentient being does) and the woman wishes not to be pregnant. If you’re really in favor of helping women, particularly minority women, you should figure out how to make their interests align with your interest in keeping fetuses alive. I saw no suggestions from you nor Dr. Piper on how to get women to want to bear their babies — only explanations of why, for those women’s own good, they should be forced to bear those babies. (At least the North didn’t claim that freeing the slaves was all for the owners’ own good and that the owners were just too dumb to recognize it.)
Planned Parenthood was founded by Margaret Sanger a devout racist. Her goal was to rid the world of “undesirables” blacks and other minorities. You can read the truth about it here: http://blackgenocide.org/planned.html
I’m not saying that everyone in planned parenthood is racist. However, they are fulfilling the goals of their founder alarmingly well.
The so called Prophet at blackgenocide.org is sending an altered photograph of Margaret Sanger in e-mail responses to inquiries they get. That is certainly not truth. Calling abortion black genocide isn’t truth either because women of all races have abortions.
It is the United States government who has actively sterileized native and black women as well as poor white women. And it is the US government that has carried out genocide of natives and blacks.
Saying that abortion is racist is distorting; if that data were analyzed socioeconomically, it would show a pattern of poor people representing more of the abortions, with black women more often happening to be poor. Logically, people without resources more often feel they can’t afford the next baby, and also can’t afford to fill birth control prescriptions the way affluent people can.
Instead of asking whether abortion is racist, we should be asking why black people are so poor in this country. Or why wealth is distributed so inequitably here compared to every other industrialized nation.
Ironically, preventing women from getting abortions would do the opposite of helping black women. Every woman who goes to an abortionist knows the resources and possibilities available to her, and makes the best decision given realistic constraints. Maybe she wants to provide better for the kids she already has. The only way women are able to attain upward mobility and education for themselves and their children is by being able to control their fertility.
The Pill has a success rate, when used perfectly, of around 99.8%. If everyone who wanted it had access to it, hardly anyone would be looking for an abortion. However, the cost is prohibitively high for people without health insurance.
Also, a lot of the rhetoric having to do with race and abortion/birth control actually comes from the other side. They complain that there is a decline of white, middle and upper class women, because this is the group that tends to have the fewest children and the most purposeful regulation of family size. Anti-abortionists and anti-contraceptionists accuse white women of committing “demographic suicide.” Sadly, many of them see their goal as promoting the growth of a white “Christian” race.
PhoebeJoy: You’re right, it is hard to draw a definitive line on where humanity, correlated but not totally synonymous with consciousness, begins. But it is only religions and other ideological doctrines that would insist on finding a specific boundary at which an event occurs. From a scientific perspective (background: I’m a neuroscience major), we would say that it is all a gradual developmental process with no clear-cut watershed moment. I know this is inconvenient. But I will say, for instance, that reading a paper by DeCasper and Spence showing that babies in the latest stages of gestation were capable of language-learning in the womb changed my personal views on late-term abortions except in the case of saving the mother’s life (because the baby is still “part” of her in the sense that a medical procedure for her cannot be separated from it, and because it can still kill her from within in cases like pre-eclampsia, which occurs in 5-8% of all pregnancies and is a leading cause of pregnancy-related death).
However, when only the humanity of the fetus is taken into account in the abortion debate, the humanity of the mother is ignored. My view is that the mother’s right to self-determination and bodily control, to whatever extent these are possible within her historical period, is greater than the interests of the fetus in the very earliest stages, which are certainly preconscious. Allowing parenthood to be a choice also more thoroughly insures the rights and the agency of the baby after it is born, growing up through adulthood, particularly in the 50% chance that it is a female. The right to your body (and pregnancy occupies and transforms and invests a woman’ body and entire life so much, how could one not see it as an event in and of her body and not just the fetus?) should not be something that begins at conception and ends at birth.
“On the contrary, they are saying that the men should face up to their responsibility. Abortion is the easy way out for the man.”
Mary, what you’re saying is that you admit that the responsibility of a child should act as a material “punishment” for the man and woman who had sex. It doesn’t sound like a setup conducive to good parenting.
I think that every decision to abort is a decision made between multiple alternatives, all of which look bad. But using a child as a means to punish a pair of adults fails to take into account the well-being of the child him/herself after birth.
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