Clayton McDonald: The Boy Who Knew He Was Going to Die

Like Sam I do remember the last article on Clayton. It was very touching!

Wow… I am stunned. I can recall several stories about people dying, and they’re from people I know. Yesterday, at chapel (it’s a Christian school and middle and high school have chapels on Fridays), our school’s pastor shared the story of his mom. She died of brain cancer at age 52. Then he shared this verse: “The righteous perish, and no one ponders it in his heart; devout men are taken away, and no one understands that the righteous are taken away to be spared from evil.”-Isaiah 57:1. I read a book many months back. It was called A Garden Full of Butterflies. The story that inspired this one is sad. The author’s daughter died when she was only five years old. Then the author said that God placed this story on her heart. Others, including myself, think that this is tragic, but the author disagrees. She knows her daughter is in heaven and that God must have had something more important planned for her. My mom’s dad died when he was 42, when she was only 11. My mom’s entire family has suffered and is still suffering from this loss. My mom is now 56, but she still cries when she talks about them. These were just the stories that went through my head when watching Clayton’s video.

Brett. Where you trying to make everyone cry? Because if so, you got me weeping.

That’s great, Alexandra. That’s what I hoped it would do for people.

I’m so sorry to hear about your loss, Hannah. My family lost my mother to cancer in 2010. Thank you for your wise words about suffering.

Hey Brett, what’s the protocol for posting this video on my blog. Is that possible?

perhaps you could post it as a discussion question?

I was thinking about that this afternoon after reading this, and I thought that if today was my last day, and if I knew that after today I would die, how I would live.

And I came up with this. I would live every moment to it’s fullest. I wouldn’t spend as much time on Facebook. I wouldn’t yell at my brothers when they drive me nuts. I would spend time with my friends and family. If my family knew what I knew, I would comfort them with bible verses and i would write. A lot.

All those things that the world says is important (like travel) I don’t think would feel that important in that moment. I think that the impact that I made on the world would be very important though.

I would want to know that everyone that I knew would know that I went to heaven.

And to live my whole life like that? wow. Can you just imagine how the world would be changed forever?

Incredible. I’m crying right now.

Thanks for your honest and powerful testimony, Trent. This really had me thinking. 🙂

Cry out to Jesus for that perspective every day. It’s not something you can work up. The Bible says we have not because we ask not — and then gives examples of asking over and over and over for things. Many of us long to be more Spirit-filled, eternally-minded, loving, patient, etc. But fail to ask over and over and over that God would fill us with His Spirit, give us the fruits of His Spirit, change our perspective, etc. We have not because we ask not. We give up too easily.

I am deeply disturbed by Brittany’s choice to publicize her death. The difference between her and Clayton is that Clayton used his death for a witness to God. Pray that Brittany might come to know her Savior and that she will change her mind.

Life for us is a privelege not a right. We got to live like everday is our last. The book of Romans says the only reason were alive is because of Jesus. I think we should be using these days to give back to Him for allowing us air to breathe. It shouldn’t take a sickness to bring us to our knees and to realize that our whole purpose is to worship and glorify God.(i mean no disrespect or anything)

While looking at that growth chart on door casing i thought ….”I’ll never out grow Clayton” …. Thank you for sharing.

This, I don’t even know how to stat plainly what this just did to my life. It flipped it over. Steered it in the right direction. Whatever you want to call it. I live in a foreign country. I pass by people every day that don’t know Christ.
I want to live like every day is my last.
I’m going to live like every day is my last.
Thank you for sharing this video.

Wow…published 2 days before Brittany passed away. Someone was itching to compare stories. I understand Brittany was having seizures twice a day and unable to formulate words often. Indescribable pain. Claytons is a great story, but not one that can be compared with. Bleeding of the nose for 10 hrs…1 day?

I have tried to join the forums a few months back, but I never was written back. I am an MK in SA. This is a really cool guy.

I think either the forums are shut down or they are short staffed.

Hello Leah, I’m sorry you found the article disrespectful. I was purposefully trying to avoid patronizing Brittany’s decision and if you read my comments on Facebook you’ll see that I took serious issue with people who called her a coward. What exactly did you find patronizing about what I wrote?

Agree. I’m sad for both that their time had to come so soon. I’m happy for both that they feel they did best for them and THEIR families. This is not a competition, let’s not treat it as such.

Hey Troy, I wasn’t trying to compare their suffering at the end of life. I was comparing their response to a terminal cancer diagnosis.

Everyone was talking about Brittany’s situation and I happened to stumble across this video of Clayton last week. I wasn’t itching to make a comparison. It suggested itself very naturally.

Our audience is composed of Christian young people. I wanted to show them how a Christian young man responded to a terminal diagnosis since many of them were already aware of Brittany’s story.

In all honesty, you are the one making an insensitive comparison. I said very little about Brittany at all. I didn’t downplay her suffering or try to compare their situations beyond that they both had terminal cancer.

You on the other hand chose to belittle Clayton’s pain, while actually having no idea what he dealt with in the 12 years he battled cancer — or in the months, weeks, and days leading up to his death. Perhaps your life has been untouched by cancer, but I’m surprised you’d assume that Clayton’s nosebleed was the only suffering he experienced.

ok ok i will right know 🙂

how’d you watch this? it’s so emotional and beautiful and tragic all at the same time i’ll try to push through!

i just got done watching the video.

words won’t come. all i can say is i wish i knew Clayton! i wish our paths crossed i wish he didn’t die. but God God had a plan for him and Clayton didn’t run from it he didn’t curse God but he embraced it and used his last days to honor and glorify God to tell people about him and he did he changed lives. he changed ours and he is still changing lives his legacy lives on and it’s our job to keep it that way. i’ll write more later when i have time to process this 😉

God Bless
~Madeleine

oh and were can i find that video they were talking about the one that Clayton was in and that they prayed that God wouldn’t take him before it was finished?

Sam, that may very well be accurate. But perception is reality. If at the top of the page it says “published Oct. 31 2014 by xx and xx” and the opening line says something happened that didn’t, then you have mislead me. And if it wasn’t your intent to mislead, then it strongly implies that someone was eager to use that story to promote another. Which is what Brett said he wasn’t doing but was, and what he said he didn’t like that Brittany was doing.

This is woah.. This video almost left me in tears. It made me realise how short Life really is, and at some point most of us will die. It really opened my eyes far beyond what I imagined, how I’m living my life selfishly and with no real purpose. It really encouraged me by Clayton’s story, how he took what God gave him aboard, and instead of grieving, or giving up on God, he used his cancer to impact the lives of SO many!! It shocks me that he used it as a gift, and was so at peace. After watching this..it made me realise, I need to live my day as if it were my last, and to share God with everyone that is around me.. This is Wow! As a teen, this made me really deeply think.. what is my ultimate purpose!? What am I doing each day for God!? And my honest answer.. I have no idea! Thats hit me HARD!! But..I’m going to find out!! Thank you so much for sharing!!! Really impacted me! You guys are doing an amazing thing for God here for teens, and everyone here! Keep shining for Christ!!!!!

Hey Troy, Sam was right that I edited the post after news came out that Brittany had followed through on her plan. It originally stated, “Brittany Maynard plans to kill herself.” I certainly didn’t intend to mislead anyone, but I understand how you took it. I will added a “updated on” note to the beginning of the post.

In answer to your question, yes, I think Brittany was trying to publicize her story — at least by the time I heard about it. Her original video went viral, true, and maybe she never expected it to all be so big and public. But she didn’t retreat from the spotlight, teamed up with an advocacy organization, and continued to release videos and do interviews with national media. She wanted to spark a national conversation and she did. This was my contribution and a pretty mild one at that.

I also understand the appeal of posting Clayton’s story by itself. But the truth is, Clayton’s video had been up for four months already on Vimeo and YouTube and only had a few hundred views. His story and example takes on a new significance when contrasted with Brittany. Now it has reached tens-of-thousands of people who would never have heard of him otherwise. You would most likely never have seen it, Troy, if it weren’t for the comparison.

Finally, I agree that Brittany’s suffering had to be pretty bad to want to end her life. But once again, I wasn’t comparing their suffering — just their response to a terminal diagnosis. The way Christians handle death and suffering has always been at the forefront of our witness. Clayton is a particular good example. And his example shines brighter by way of contrast — at least it has for the vast majority of people who have read my article and watched his video.

Thanks for engaging in a respectful way, Troy, and taking the time to communicate your concerns.

I agree with you Leah!

It was a comparison. Don’t try to deny it. You are trying to capitalize on her fresh death for page views and comparing two completely different illnesses for your own gain.

Brandon, I never denied comparing the two stories or that I prefer Clayton’s choice over Brittany’s. Perhaps in your opinion that is the height of bigotry. That’s too bad. Brittany wanted to spark a discussion. Those are usually two-sided.

I also think you misinterpreted my response to Leah. I said I was trying not to be patronizing. I never denied that I disagreed with Brittany’s choice. I do, as do many others.

Now, given that I disagree with her choice, I think my post was pretty mild. Others have spoken much more strongly. Some have accused her of being a coward or said other shameful things. I have publicly rebuked them.

Finally, I’ll admit I have less life experience than many people. But you make a pretty grand assumption yourself to think I lack the experience to speak to these situations. What do you know about me? What do you know about my life? You can’t even get my age right. 😉

For example, I was my mother’s primary caretaker as she wasted away with cancer. I held her insides in place with my hands for over an hour after her intestines ruptured and we waited for repeated doses of morphine to kick in (she was at home in hospice care, waiting to die from Stage IV colon cancer). My wife has been bedridden for two years and has dealt with indescribable pain and nearly every symptom Brittany faced for months-at-a-time. We have other close friends who are even sicker.

Perhaps it is easier for you to assume that anyone who disagrees with you is ignorant or inexperienced. But I actually have great compassion for Brittany, her husband, and her family based on real suffering. Though my experiences pale in comparison to many, I can still completely understand why they chose what they did. And if I wasn’t a Christian I would do exactly the same thing.

As I explained on Facebook, without the example of Jesus it makes absolutely no sense to embrace suffering or have hope in the midst of it. Christianity is counter-intuitive. It allows people like Clayton to transcend what any sane person would call an unfair, horrible situation.

Perhaps this means nothing to you. But for many believers like me, Brittany’s story required a response — a counter-point example. I felt Clayton was that example and I tried to make the comparison as mildly as I could. Obviously it wasn’t mild enough not to offend anyone. But then again, I wasn’t expecting so many people to read it. =P

Really, really incredible. Clayton’s story has convicted me in the most incredible way. God used Clayton’s life in an amazing way. I am a current college student, struggling to understand what in the world God wants me to do with my life. Due to lack of being able to find an answer to this question, my faith has not grown. Quite the opposite actually.

Clayton’s story and attitude has reminded me of a very particular thought that I often forget. EVERY SINGLE BREATH IS A BLESSING. Every second of life is a gift straight from God himself. Clayton has reminded me to live with a burning desire to live with joy. Joy that is rooted in that of Jesus. Life is an amazing ride no matter how long it lasts. This story has inspired me to take the reigns again. I know my time is short here, just like Clayton said. WHY NOT reach for the stars? Thank you for this.

I plan on killing myself as soon as other considerations take place. I will go knowing that at least I didn’t use some man-made, noxious, religious puffery to hold up the suffering of a child, saying childish things to the end, and glorying in his suffering. Ugh, the ugliness of humanity is amplified a thousand-fold by religion.

Thank you so much for posting this story about Clayton. A heroic young man that I otherwise might not of heard of. Fantastic testimony to show my teenage children & encourage them in their lives & challenge them in their walk with Christ.

The tragedy us some ,who are given 6 months, live for years and years. Some are able to marry. Some see their children grow. And some see their own grandchildren.

but still you know? God is great everything done in this world is for his glory and so that people might see his power and glory i love him so much!

Thanks Sam. i just watched Clayton’s video the one made right before he died. How can someone be so grounded like that knowing were their going living their life like there’s no tomorrow loving people like every second could be their last it’s amazing to me. it makes me want to go and love the world like he did to throw away all the distractions of this life and focus on God and nothing else.

Hey Kate
yes i thought along those lines as well as i watched. am i being good to friends am i loving them like Christ would. if i died this second would i be satisfied and what i came up with was no! i wouldn’t be satisfied because I’ve spent so many days hating people choosing not to forgive people because they hurt me. and saying cruel words to people because i’m hurting and it feels good. I’ve been trying to refocus my life on Christ to love those that i don’t like and to forgive those who have hurt me. right know I’ve been counseling er encouraging one girl in my class who is struggling with stuff in her life her personnel struggles are getting her down and she came to me and asked my forgiveness cause she was a little disrespectful to me in one of our classes. and i forgave her.but if it was last year i probably would have just left it at that and not taken the time to tell her about how i struggle to and what gives me hope and encouragement. know this girl is not vary popular what i mean is she has a reputation of being annoying disrespectful and all that. and I’ve just kind of ignored and stayed away from her for these four years but know i’m like God has called us to love everyone. i need to love her and other’s so I’ve made it a point to love those who no one else does. Because i’m tired of following the world i want to be different and follow Christ whom i love!

~Madeleine

that would impact the world in a big way!!!

Brett i’m sorry for your wife and mother! i know how hard it is to lose loved one’s. i pray that your wife will be healed if it’s God’s will. And may he be glorified through all of this.
~Madeleine

me to!!

what is?

In Brett’s defense, his wife suffers severely from Lyme disease and he lost his mother to cancer. There is much about him that you must not know in order for you to post such an insensitive, hurtful, arrogant, and scornful comment. See the following article for more information about the young man you are disrespecting, and consider all the respect he has garnered from the frequent visitors of this website and how they will stand up for him in the face of such insults. http://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/alex-and-brett-harris-are-doing-hard-things

There are no words to describe how much I wish I could say something really powerful and potent right here as an encouragement. Words that are my own and not borrowed. However, as happens on rare occasions, words fail me.

I wanted to say, Brett, that I’m sorry. I didn’t know Ana was bed-ridden, and had no idea what you went through with your mother. God bless you, I can’t even imagine the effort you’ve put into taking care of those whom you love, and I admire you for that. I wish there was something else that I could say, but there isn’t.

I guess I’ll just leave you with a Bible verse and the assurance that I will be praying.
Isaiah 53:3-12 doesn’t seem like an entirely encouraging passage to me but following a nudge I would share it with you in knowing Christ shares in the suffering of your loved ones.
And one last thing, Matthew 1128-29.
God bless you, Brett. I pray that you would find comfort and rest.

https://www.biblegateway.com/resources/commentaries/IVP-NT/2Cor/Encouragement-Midst-Suffering

Hey Craig, I agree with you to a point. There are many choices that can only be made by the person suffering. However, if a suffering person chose to murder someone else, that choice is open for opinions and judgment. Killing someone is wrong.

I happen to also believe that killing yourself is wrong — even though it was perfectly understandable why Brittany chose to do so. And when anyone is publicly advocating for doing something wrong (no matter how heart-wrenching their situation) any person can have an opinion about it.

Furthermore, when someone is publicly advocating for a political campaign to legalize something I believe is wrong, then I definitely have a right and basis for sharing my opinion on it.

Brittany was trying to spark a national discussion. Those are usually two-sided. People accuse Christians of living in an echo-chamber, but all this “no one can have a different opinion” business is the definition of an echo-chamber.

Thanks so much, Sadie.

I’m sick of hearing people like this kid (who has zero life experience) casting judgement on Brittany. Using their personal belief to suggest what she did is wrong is beyond ridiculous. Brett did this in the article by using the comparison to Clayton, and he does it directly if you read his comments throughout the story. It’s wrong. It’s tacky.

What Brittany did was her personal choice to make and no one has the right to an opinion on the manner. I know in today’s world of social media everyone feels it’s not only their right, but their duty to make their opinion on every subject known — but in this case it’s unwarranted and just plain tacky.

Brittany ended her suffering. It was the right choice for her. Clayton didn’t. It was the right choice for him. One choice isn’t better than the other. It’s not a competition. Making remarks that turn their deaths into adversarial functions is only something a petulant child would do for his own gain — and look at the page views it has gotten him.

I don’t believe it is your place to have an opinion on the subject of how Brittany chose to end her life. Your opinion, your judgement was not solicited. If you should find yourself in her position one day with a debilitating, painful, and life-ending illness — you are free to make whatever choices you want about your life. You strip her of dignity when you admonish her choices, even by comparison.

So now you are comparing Brittany’s choice to murdering someone else? Wow.

It was her life. It was her choice.

I am so sick to death of religious nutbags like you wanting legal intervention on personal choices on the basis of your personal beliefs. Newsflash: not everyone subscribes to your brand of faith.

Here is the truth: you can have an opinion that is different than her. You can even blurt it out and look like a tacy person sticking your nose where it doesn’t belong, right in the middle of someone’s life-ending decisions who you don’t even know. But why on earth should your personal beliefs be used as the basis of a law preventing end-of-life decisions between a terminally-ill person and their doctor? There are thousands of religious ideologies in this nation, if you think your’s should get preferential treatment, you’re a foolish child who should have paid more attention in school when you were busy tinkering on your blog of zealotry.

This is not a Christian nation. This is a nation free from religious oppression. That means our laws are not to reflect or infringe upon the practice of anyone’s beliefs. Allowing others the dignity to end their life as Brittany did does not infringe upon your right to NOT do the same thing. When will Christians learn that their faith is meant to guide their own lives and not be forced upon those who either don’t believe or choose differently?

Much in the way admonishing Brittany’s choices was insensitive, hurtful, and arrogant I suppose?

Thanks, Brett! If I end up posting it, I will definaly mention therebelution.com

you are right,

without Jesus (not without religon, but without Jesus), life isn’t worth living.

without Jesus life and death are one and the same.

that’s why we need Jesus, with Jesus “to live is Christ and to die is gain”, without Jesus “life is hectic and unforgiving, death just leads to even worse suffering.”

Death leads to more suffering when you don’t know Jesus, so why pick more suffering? Take the easy way and choose Jesus, where there is a reason to live, and to die is gain.

Don’t believe the lies that everyone goes to a “better place” when they die, because those who die without Jesus don’t go to a better place.

I haven’t read all these comments but I just need to point out that the article makes it seem like Brittany ended her life when she still had six months left. She was told she had 6 months at the beginning of the year. She likely had only days to a couple weeks left as it is. I can’t judge her for her decision because it’s not my place, but she didn’t STILL have six months left to live.

We are defined by the choices we make. Take on the perspective of a christian and tell me who made the more righteous choice.

Well even Christians are capable of empathy. I know plenty of Christians who would not treat Brittany’s death flippantly or as something less than Clayton’s just because of her choice. Christianity is about acceptance regardless of perceived mistakes or flaws.

In other words, you think your unfounded beliefs are more important than someone else’s reality. Cool story, brah.

How about instead of attempting to force others to think the way you do, you live your life by the example of your faith. If it’s really so good and so true, others will follow. Constantly pointing at others and saying what amounts to, “God says that’s a NO NO according to me!” does little persuade anyone that you or your faith are ‘correct’ or even worth a listen.

Is anyone forcing the christian belief down your throat. Am I sticking a gun to you and saying confess Christ or I will pull the trigger. NO. Quite the contrary Christians have been extensively persecuted for not denying Christ. Speaking out for what one believes is living by example. What else should we do? Without spreading what God says (AKA the BIBLE), how are we to show people what our faith is?

Very cool video. When Clayton said, “you’re dying too,” it made me really sit back and think about how we all know that but I don’t think we all focus on it enough, especially when we let little things get to us. I think this video and Brittany’s story too, are both great tools for those who have cancer to not only relate but help them make some hard decisions. And even if you don’t have cancer, I think both stories still offer perspectives on life that we could all benefit from listening too. Thanks for sharing Clayton’s story!

Yes, folks demanding these laws be repealed on the basis of religious belief. Those are the people forcing Christian beliefs down the throats of others. And no, it’s not the contrary that is true. Christians just happen to think that if there are laws allowing others to live their lives as they wish, that is an attack on their beliefs. For instance, allowing couples of the same sex to marry — Christians somehow think that by allowing these individuals the legal right to marry under the law, that is a persecution or denial of Christian rights. It’s not.

And the reasoning behind “spreading what God says” isn’t to share faith, it’s to garner more followers and amass more power, influence, and money for the church. Let’s not kid ourselves. Religion is a business, and business is dwindling.

No, this nation was not founded upon Christianity. It was founded upon the idea to be free from religious persecution. Further, John Adams (founding father and 2nd president) said, “As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion…” in the Treaty of Tripoli. It’s pretty hard to dispute those words.

And the pledge hasn’t been around long… the first pledge was written in 1892. The phrase “under God” wasn’t added until 1954. This was added in response to the communist threat of the times.

I would suggest brushing up on your US history.

There is a book that was written that tells a similar story. Check out: MicahRamseyOutreach.com

Incidentally, Micah read your book, Do Hard Things a few months prior to his diagnosis. It is mentioned in the book.

If you understood anything about Christianity you would understand the need for the comparison. We believe in God the Father, God the Son (Jesus Christ) and the Holy Spirit. We know that one day all will stand before the Triune God in judgment. Those who are followers of Christ will enter the kingdom, those who are not will be sent to Hell. Our beliefs make this a fact for us. It does not matter if someone else believes, they will one day bow before the throne. God tells us to love our neighbors as ourselves. Now I don’t know about you, but I love myself enough to care about avoiding eternal suffering….this is why I warn others of the potential for their eternal suffering. You may call this “pushing my beliefs” on them, but I call it giving them the gift of love that was given to me by my creator.

The being said, as a Christian I know that our life choices have consequences. I know that although I follow Christ, I will continue to sin throughout my life. I know that Christ paid the penalty for my sins on the cross. I do not desire to go on sinning, but it is a reality of my sinful nature that now wars against my spiritual nature that occasionally my sinful nature will win the battle. This does not mean it wins the war. Christ won that war on the cross. I am forgiven of my sins, past and future, because I have accepted his payment.

There is however one sin that is unforgivable because you cannot ask for forgiveness once you are dead. No follower of Christ could commit this sin, because Jesus told us and assured us that nothing can pluck a Christian from His Father’s hand. This sin is suicide. You can say that Brittany made the choice that is right for her, but to a Christian this is just not so. Because of our beliefs, we know that the pain and suffering she had in this life are of no comparison to the pain and suffering she will now suffer for eternity because of her separation from God. You say she ended her suffering, but sadly it has only just begun.

Now because, as Christians, we believe this with all our heart, we feel the need to warn those who may consider doing this that it is the wrong choice, that this choice will lead to eternal damnation. You don’t have to believe this, but it does not make it any less true for us. We share our concern because we care. The thought of anyone, even a total stranger, enduring eternal suffering is sad to us. We would not wish that on our worst enemies. So naturally we are going to respond to this controversial matter. Naturally we are going to point others to people like Clayton who allowed God to continue to work through him and use his illness to reach the lost.

Sorry if this offends you, but it is our belief, and last time I checked I still have to right to share it in this country. If you take issue with these, feel free to take it up with God himself, but remember how God responded to Job when Job questioned Him. It is not for us to question God’s ways. Just as it is not for me to save you, but to inform you that there is a God and He loves you and wants you to follow Him. But woe be to those who turn and go their own way.

May the peace and comfort of the Lord Jesus Christ be with you.

If you understood Christianity at all you would know that we are instructed to spread our faith to all the nations. Christianity isn’t self-help American garbage, it is a call to the lost of this world to come to God. We are not to focus on ourselves, but to love one another.

Hey Brandon, just wanted to let you know that I appreciated this comment and I think it helped me understand and appreciate your perspective better. I haven’t been able to comment today because I was busy with other things and when I did try to comment the website was loading so slowly I had to give up (we’ve been crushed with traffic to this post).

Anyway, just wanted to let you know that I do plan to re-engage in our discussion when my schedule permits. I think it is important and that what you say deserves a thoughtful reply. All the best to you!

The majority of our laws do not come from religious beliefs. They come from Roman society — our own government was largely designed based upon the Roman Empire.

Religion doesn’t have the copyright on morality. Morality exists well outside religious construct. The idea to not cause harm to another person isn’t Christian, nor any other faith. Laws have been in place prohibiting murder and other heinous crimes longer than the existence of today’s popular brands of faith. The Sumerians, the first people, had government, laws, morality, and social order — and they were around 5,000 years before the advent of Christianity and monotheistic ideology.

Thanks Sam. For what it’s worth, most scholars actually think the majority of the founding fathers were not Christian, but rather deists and/or agnostic. You have to realize that these men were first and foremost scholars of their time, and had a hard time buying into what couldn’t be proven.

Where most people get confused, like you did, is with the idea that the nation was founded with Christian values. Rather than citing Christian values as our forefather’s influence, we can more aptly cite basic morality and laws from both their homeland (England) and Roman law. We can also see this influence in how our government was constructed with much inspiration from the Roman Empire. It’s hard sometimes to separate morality from Christian ideology because as Americans we’re so indoctrinated with the concept that Christianity is “normal” and that the world really began with the advent of the faith — even our calendar started over with the birth of Christianity! But, through careful consideration of historical fact, we learn that basic morality has been around for thousands of years longer than any modern brand of faith. The first society, the Sumerians, had government, laws, punishment, and an entire set of social practices that set the course for human societal development — even Christianity.

I replied to your other comment a bit more at length. But the basic idea of morality exists outside of religious identity. We’re delving into a philosophical area. To make this short, I’ll bullet point a few concepts.

1. Morality is a complex structure to maintain social cohesion and enhance survivability among social creatures (i.e. murder is bad).

2. Morality is present in wolf packs and other animal species. Anywhere you find social orders of animals you will find acceptable and unacceptable behaviors creating social order. For instance, if a subordinate wolf mates over the Alpha wolf, there will be consequences within their social construct. This is evidence of how social morality works and can be applied to humans.

3. There is an inherited behavior for all species to thrive and reproduce. Doing something to cut another’s path short (like murdering them) is in conflict with this basic behavior. To simplify this without going into a wild tangent, we can just suffice with: morals are a part of genetica and are more complex in higher order mammal social structures. The mechanism that creates human morality is built into our genetics.

4. Morals are subject to a wide range of applications and extremes, sometimes even social moralities can be created from lies, false beliefs, and indoctrination.

5. Morals are subject to change and most are not absolute. What was once moral, like slavery, may not be moral today.

It’s hard to have a full discussion on the matter but that sums it up for me… And if we want to dispute those five ideas, I’d posit the following rebuttal: if we get our morals from a god, are they moral because a god says they are or because a god is bound by them? This question is the Euthyphro dilema. If a thing is moral because a god says a thing is moral then this god could say that slavery is moral and it would then be good. If god cannot say this then this god is bound by outside moral laws. This would beg the question, where did these morals come from that are conveyed by god? This also brings into question the scope of human reality and philosophical concepts of time.

Mitch, ‘dying with dignity’ catch phrase is just that — it’s a way for folks facing a terrible illness to feel better about ending their life on their terms and not running the risk of carrying on while unconscious or through the assistance of medical equipment. That was Brittany’s fear, that through the course of her illness she would eventually lose grasp on reality, who people were, who she was, control over her body, etc. and be unable to end her own suffering. Simply put, you’re getting caught up on semantics.

As for the laws you call attention to — no. There is a difference. Laws prohibiting murder, for instance, prevent one person from inflicting damage to another. Laws allowing someone to end their own life, or even allowing two same-sex individuals to enjoy rights and protections under the law do not damage or even affect another person. That is the difference. One law prevents a person from damaging another, the other prevents a person from making a personal choice for their own self.

As for the idea that it’s Christian ideology that developed the concept of not murdering or stealing — sorry, that was around a lot longer than Christianity, even Judaism. Basic morality, as I mentioned on other comment, predates all modern religious beliefs by about 5,000 years. You can thank the Sumerian people for first developing the concept of society and basic human values. They, being the first society, were the inspiration for all human societies that came after them.

I don’t think you meant to respond to me with this… I’m one of few who take issue with this article and anyone admonishing her or her choices.

Hey Trog,
When I first read your comment, my heart was broken. Mainly because I know how it is to feel that way and how hard it is to want life, when you are so far in a pit of depression that you can’t even see the light. I’ve been there.

But what’s really cool is that no matter how far down you are, even if you can’t see the light, Jesus can reach down and save you. He will lift you up onto the solid ground, from that pit!

If you choose to end your life, it’s just that. The end. There is just standing before Jesus after that, and then eternity, in the place that you choose.

Trog, Jesus loves you so much that he died, so that you don’t have to. He died to set you free. He died to liberate you forever!

Please please please don’t kill yourself, instead, look for the light and ask Jesus to save you! Because he would love to.

I’ll be praying for you!

Please share with me where the Bible explicitly condemns those who take their own life. And please do not use the “Thou shalt not kill” argument.

Hey APROFFESHUNAL, I doubt you have read all the comments around here (who could blame you?), but I think you are really missing the whole point of why Christians (or at least, why this Christian) disagrees with Brittany’s choice.

It’s not about consider her death as lesser than Clayton’s. Both of the deaths are heartbreaking, equally so. The difference between the two is their consequences. Clayton died while putting his faith in Jesus Christ and with the hope of eternal life. Brittany died without that faith and hope. And I wish she hadn’t. I wish she knew Jesus because I believe it matters more than anything else.

You see, from a Christian’s perspective, this is NOT about how two people conducted their deaths — it’s about how they entered eternal life. And it does matter how you do that.

From that point of view, the only loving thing to tell anyone is that Clayton’s choice was better. Not because he was a braver or better person. He wasn’t. Brittany seemed like an incredible person too. But as the video states, being an amazing person doesn’t get you into Heaven. Only trusting in Jesus can. And that’s what I wish for Brittany.

Hope that makes a little sense. Thanks for participating in this discussion. I know I’ve learned a lot.

oh yeah that’s is true 😉

I haven’t watched the video yet…but when Brittany ended her life, she was 1.5 months left…not 6 months. The author skewed the fact.

Thanks!

Age does not equal life experience.

“Helping and encouraging” people? Don’t drink your own Kool-Aid and think the echo-chamber you have created is actually making some sort of a difference. Christian or not, when people are staring death in the face, they should be able to make their own decision. Not all choices are equal, as you say, but you don’t have the right to make other people’s choices for them.

dig·ni·ty noun : a way of appearing or behaving that suggests seriousness and self-control : the quality of being worthy of honor or respect the quality or state of being worthy, honored, or esteemed.

Doesn’t define suicide at all. But it does define people like Clayton. It will be an honor to meet him in glory.

Hey Brandon, I wanted to let you know that I’ve update the original post based on the feedback you and others have given me. I don’t expect for you to agree with me because of this, but I hope my care for Brittany and my understanding of her decision come through more clearly. And I hope the reason for why a Christian would lovingly disagree with her choice makes sense too. Let me know what you think.

Your reference to Kool-Aid is ironic given the subject matter.

Ahem…

Wishing Brittany made a different choice or providing an example of a different choice is not the same as making other people’s choices for them.

Also, the accusation of echo-chamber could go both ways. You seem intent on squashing dissension. I am welcoming it. I even updated the post based on the feedback I’m receiving.

Have you actually tried to understand where I’m coming from?

Right! Thanks.

Thanks for pointing this out, Michael. That was an unintentional skewering on my part. I have since updated the post entirely and removed that mistake.

There are many things that are not explicitly expressed in the Bible. However, the Bible does define sin as simply that which goes asgainst the will of God. Therefore, choosing to end your life on your terms rather than His would be condmned as it was not His will for you to die yet. I could research specific verses that I feel describe sin as I have defined it above if needed. If you expect to find specific answers to every situation you will be disappointed. The Bible is God’s written word about His creation, their fall, and His redemptive work through Christ. It is not a list of dos and don’ts. It is more of a guide to be used to determine how best to strengthen your personal relationship with Him. Spitting in His face is surely not a good way to do that.

Sadie, you’re clearly confused. Even Brett admits that this article is comparing the way the two ended their lives. The entire article is presenting Clayton’s choice as the alternative to Brittany’s choice.

“Death with dignity” is a term coined by the Brittany camp — they are even pushing the “Death with Dignity Act” as a means of allowing folks in other states to enjoy the same right she had in Oregon.

I haven’t put down anyone’s faith, nor have I been so arrogant as to put my beliefs above another’s. What I have said is that no one’s personal beliefs are reason to deny another the right to a personal choice — which is exactly what many Christians seek to do.

There are several other commenters on this post who suggest Brittany has done something sinful, that she will never get to their idea of heaven, etc. THAT, my friend is some pretty harsh judgement.

As for my personal emotional state — you bet I’m angry. I’m sick and tired of the self-perceived, “moral authorities” that many Christians insist they are using their own personal brand of faith as a vehicle to compel or outright force others into actions and behaviors on the basis of their unfounded beliefs. I don’t begrudge anyone using their beliefs and values as a means of guiding their own lives, but when you start demanding laws and admonishing others, that’s when I (and everyone who doesn’t subscribe to your ideology) get angry, irritated, and take aim.

What I’m doing isn’t arrogant, it’s arrogant to insist your beliefs are the only just, correct, and righteous.

How is it displaying for you, Grant? It looks fine on my apple computer.

Do you not see that your opinion is judgement in itself? “I wish she would have chose to spend that time with her family or doing something to improve this world.” That is judgement — though not a harsh one, it is still indeed judgement.

You are free to have an opinion, but my question is why? Why do you (or anyone else) feel it is important to weigh in on the life or death choices of someone you don’t know, never met, who (I assume) lives hundreds or thousands of miles away? Mind you, you’re ignorant (as we all are) of all the facts pertaining to her illness, personal situation, and thoughtful consideration that lead her to make this choice. Brittany said on more than one occasion that she didn’t want to end her life. She wanted to live! But sadly, that wasn’t a real option. She had, at most, a few months to live — and her illness began to take away her faculties. She began to forget who people were, she would have seizures, she was in incredible pain. What good is it for her to spend time with family if she doesn’t know who they are or if she is in such pain she can’t engage them? We only saw the videos where she was feeling somewhat good and presented in the best possible light — that wasn’t her daily reality. I can’t even imagine the fear of one day waking up and being unable to move or not knowing who I am, who my family members were, or lacking the ability to speak. That is what her illness was doing to her — and one day she would suddenly lose all control and be trapped in a body.

This is why I think it’s a little outrageous for anyone to have an opinion on the subject. We knew little about her situation or her as a person. So to use personal belief as the vehicle to question her choices while having NO facts about her reality is 100% wrong in my book. Simply put, it’s pure assumption and for no purpose as you (nor I) have/had any stake in her life or death.

Honestly it does. Though it’s not the leading indicator of life experience, with age does come experience and exposure to new ideas, situations, knowledge, and beyond. A 60 year old had had three times the lifespan of a 20 year old. That is a pretty good indication that they will have seen and experienced a great deal more.

Sure he is. That’s the point of this article, to present an option that he finds more palatable. It’s a bit silly to think otherwise.

And no, I’m not attacking you or anyone. It’s pretty sad that you think a view in opposition is an attack. What I have said, time and time again, is that your faith is your’s — use it as a guide to your own life. But why must you (Christians) impose it upon others? Why must laws be written that adhere to Christian ideology so that non-believers must live by your beliefs? That is where I drew the line — not to tell you that there is something wrong about your beliefs, but to tell you that non-believers shouldn’t have to adhere to them nor listen to your judgement.

Hello Jo Lene and welcome to the website. Thank you for joining the discussion. Your comments about the church and religion made me think of this video by a guy name Jeff Bethke called “Why I Hate Religion, But Love Jesus.” I thought you may appreciate it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1IAhDGYlpqY

At the same time, I’m concerned by your reference to “my God” as if God is someone we can shape in our own image and mold like Play-Doh. Such a creature is not “God” at all, but a puppet who rubber stamps your opinions and preferences.

As a Christian my concern for Brittany wouldn’t change if she made a choice with “her God” because I want her to know the One True God. And I say that out of love, not judgment. Because I truly believe there is only one way to be saved — and that is through Jesus Christ. If I see someone headed down a different path, I will call after them, not because I think poorly of them at all, but because I care so much about their future.

I hope that makes at least some sense to you, even if you disagree.

Jane, I don’t think it matters how many people see something as dangerous, but rather whether it actually is.

Wealthy citizens in the Roman Empire drank water that flowed through lead pipes. If I could go back to that time, I would warn them. And it would be irrelevant whether they already believed lead pipes were dangerous or not. It would only matter whether what I said was true.

I think that’s what Sam is getting at. As Christians we believe that there is great danger in dying apart from faith in Jesus Christ. We must (out of love) warn others. And all that matters is whether what we say is true or not.

Does that make sense?

The simple truth is that we don’t know. But where Christian institute faith for the unknown, I do not. I chose to put my faith in science, history, and other tangible ideas supported by known fact. It’s because of that I have a difficult time believing that morality is a Christian construct as morality existed before anyone human had the idea of anything monotheistic. How can something (God) exist if no one has ever heard of him? That is the Euthyphro dilemma.

For me personally, I’m agnostic. I am the skeptic, the cynic, the person always chasing knowledge to support ideas. I’m open and respectful to all ideologies, but I won’t respect the notion that one is right over another, nor that something lacking proof or fact should be used as the basis to control another person who believes differently. I believe that if you believe, that is your right — and you are free to use your belief as your personal guide. I believe that the insistence that your beliefs are the only truth, and forcing those ideas onto another, is the first sign of a lack of faith and that it’s a fear response. I believe that, for the most part, religious ideology has been a tool for social development and power acquisition throughout history — and that whatever grain of truth there might be to some ideologies has been lost or altered along the way — but be that true or not, it doesn’t take away from the right for someone to hold onto something that gives them personal meaning or understanding of the world.

No, Christians don’t have to keep silent. But they also don’t have to admonish another’s choices as a means of holding up another choice in higher regard. The adversarial nature of Christianity has made this a common practice — to demonize one person or choice as a means of elevating another.

One is capable of saying they *think* they would choose differently than Brittany while still recognizing that her choice was the right one for her. Simply put, you can have your cake and eat it too. You can hold onto your values while allowing others the dignity of their choices, too.

Try something like this, “While Brittany’s choice to end her life was the right one for her, I’m just not sure I could do that. In my beliefs, we think ending our own life is wrong and I’d be fearful that my God would take issue with that choice. I’m happy she chose what was right for her, but I think my path would be different.” A statement like that removes any implied judgement and makes it the stated opinion 100% authentic and 100% respectful of the opposing choice.

I guess it comes down to respect and modesty for me…

OK, well earlier when I tried (reloaded, etc…) it showed up as shown above,and now when I first go to the webpage it still shows up wrong as above. However now re-loading fixes the problem, i’m not sure why re-loading did not work earlier, but it works now.

Me neither, Sam. Some hard stuff they’ve gone through; great inspirations, both of them.

NWaff…I don’t think Brittany took her death cocktail on a day she was feeling healthy. She was near death…she wasn’t going to get out of bed ever again! You all who say stuff like this think they just wake up and say…today is the day. You think they take it lightly!

” I am afraid for those who think they are going to heaven but are not.” I think I might be one of those people. How can I be sure I am going to heaven?

I remember this day at Cornerstone with my friend, Francis, sharing this boy’s story. This was one brave boy. He knew he was going to die. He bravely chose to die how he wanted to die.

I’m not sure how I feel about his story being compared to Brittany’s. Brittany, too, knew she was going to die and bravely chose to die how she wanted to die.

I don’t know about you, but there is a very BIG difference between being nearly 19 years old and being nearly 30 years old. Do you remember the exhilarating feeling that nothing could stop you when you were 19? Do you remember that by the time you were 30 you became slightly more tainted about how much impact you could actually have on this big, wide world? There’s also a big difference between believing your death can impact others’ eternal life and believing your death has little to no impact on the life of others beyond the here and now. But does that belief mean that your death was without meaning for the One who created you? Does your story of grief and suffering mean less because you didn’t happen to be brought up in a Christian home or some other equivalent scenario?

Brett writes, “Trusting in Jesus gets you into heaven.” Okay, I see a couple minor things theologically askew with that statement, but here’s the main thing. Sure, “trusting in Jesus” (whatever that means) is vital to our eternal destiny in a positive way, but that belief doesn’t mean that “not trusting in Jesus” automatically means you’re destined foreternal life without Christ.

Having said all this, I see that Brett is a sweet, humble guy who strives to place Jesus at the forefront of our life…and our death. It’s good thing to get Claytons’ message out again. It’s very good.

It’s also very good to get Brittany’s message out. There are countless reasons to get her message out. It points us to suffering, disease, desperation, death, and trying to come to terms with all this freaking crap that consumes our lives more and more the longer we live each day and are obliged to look into the eye of the Destroyer. Even Jesus wept, utterly grieved at what the Destroyer brought to the lives of those whom he loved (John 11:35). It’s good to get her message out, because it compels us to vulnerably and breathlessly fall at the feet of the One who is Life.

Their stories, Clayton and Brittany, are the same and they are different. They’re different—a young, zealous believer in Christ who had the privilege of facing death at a point in his life where it all seemed to make sense and on the other side, a married woman on the verge of beginning a family who was, perhaps, uncertain of Christ but who had her God-given conscience to guide her in how to handle this unexpected death sentence brutally handed to her. They’re similar—a young man facing death who chose to die how he wanted to die and a young woman facing death who chose to die how she wanted to die.

Thank you, Sarah. I’ll check it out. My path is a different one and I’m not really an advocate nor an opponent of any particular brand of faith. I’m agnostic, a skeptic… but I encourage all to choose the path that gives them the most comfort and fits best to their life. I’ve studied history and the religious ideologies of the world for 20 years, so that is what draws me to conversations like this. The sad thing is that many Christians are ignorant of the historical aspects of their faith, and the world before the advent of modern ideology. But, I will pick up your recommendations and check it out. 🙂

After seeing Clayton’s video I was shocked at how weak
most Christians are compared to him (that includes me)
and we all need to work on our relationships with God
so that we can become more loving like Clayton.

I got an email from my Church about Brittany, and A lady
called Maggie Karner has made a video on YouTube

called “A letter to Brittany Maynard” Maggie’s video
has also changed me like Clayton’s story.

Please see it, it will help you understand that
people still care in this dying world.

I feel I am one of those people because I accepted Jesus when I was 13 at a camp and I meant it with my whole heart. The next day I read in the Bible about how God will not forgive us unless we forgive others that God hates us unless we forgive others. I could not forgive the people who had abused and abandoned me. Please dont take it lightly the abuse i went through was horrific. My heart is and has been hard. I spend all my time around Christians because i know they are basically safe but i have been so angry and have done alot of hurtful stupid things to myself and others. Now I am at the place where I am tired of being angry and I desperately want to be loved by God but there is the disconnect. Does that make sense? Like we will never have a relationship. When I try to pray I feel like God is mocking me and has no compassion for me. Like a ‘shutup and growup” attitude. God has a hatred for me. I have this I give up “whatever” attitude. God has given up on me. So I will just do the “Christian stuff” with no substance. Just going through the motions. So I thought I am going to heaven based on a 13 year old prayer but I doubt it now after listening to Clayton actually to be honest I always had my doubts. .It feels good to finally be honest. Thank you for the opportunity. I wish I could start over with God. A do-over. Wipe the slate clean and start over.

What about the fact that Jesus rose back up from the dead? you didn’t cover that in your comment!

NOTE: I’m not trying to start a fight. I just want to know what you think.

You are very right many sins are listed in the bible and as a Christian I know in my life I have made poor decisions but it also says gods hand is always reaching out to you all you have to do is accept it. Everyone has committed what the Bible deems as sins but I would never condemn every one of them. The only person who has the right to determine that is God so personal judgement of a sin when every Christian has committed them is going against his word as well.

just to clarify one point. Brett specifically said you weren’t being hateful or disdainful.

Granted, I’m ignorant. I find no desire within me to research the efforts a woman went to to take her own life. “…whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things(Philippians 4:8).
My discussion was not about Brittany’s choice nor preventing others from being able to make it, it was in defense of my faith and fellow believers. Again, your words are offensive. I never said force in that context and I give any non-believe permission to slap me in the face if I ever attempt to force on them morals which are formed by my belief and my faith. I also have never said that you cannot be redeemed if you end your own life. I will say this, the Bible speaks clearly about the role of a person’s body. “Do you not know that you are a temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? If any man destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him, for the temple of God is holy, and that is what you are(1 Corinthians 3:16-17). Even the apostle Paul himself admitted that he wished to depart(Philippians 1:23). It is a human reaction to severe suffering. If you will look at 2 Corinthians 11:24-25, Paul was literally tortured, as was Christ. What then shall I say? I hold the Bible to be the Word of God, with all authority. Our Savior Himself, knowing what He would go
through, would not shorten His own suffering; we must also hold ourselves accountable to His example. Paul, who was not Christ and could have shortened his suffering also, but He did not for the advance of the gospel. Clayton is a good example of this. As to your request that I tell you more about how I’ve matured in Christ: Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus(Philippians 3:12) and through to verse 16 is a perfect answer to that question you have for me. No, it is not my place to judge Brittany, and I never have. It is for God to pass judgment. But to each other we acknowledge what the Bible says. Acts 4:12, there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved. John 14:6, Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.” You decided to join the conversation. We would not say these things without being asked. It would be insensitive and start conflict, when we are commanded to as much as we can be at peace with all men(Romans 12:18).
You quote Bible verses to me without the correct context. I have not looked at the speck that is in my brother’s eye, for you are not my brother in Christ. I have not attempted to throw a stone at Brittany, for I am not without sin. What place is it for you to tell me I cannot encourage my sisters and brothers in Christ to not make the same
decision as she did? This website is for believers. That’s the context that our conversations here are in, from believer to believer among believers. I am not in conflict with my beliefs, nor with other believers. You thrust your conflict among us, quote our Scriptures to us though you do not believe. Where is your place here? What accord has a non-believer with the sisters and brothers of Christ when we were not thrusting our judgment nor beliefs nor morals on you. You thrust yours on us when we discussed amongst ourselves the differences in the two decisions made by the two young people and encouraging each other in the decision our beliefs would encourage us to make.

Dear Rebecca, I am so, so sorry to hear that you have experienced abuse and abandonment in your life. Those things break my heart and I know they break the heart of God even more. I pray that you would find healing and continued protection from further harm.

In regards to your question, thank you for being so honest. I’m glad you have felt the relief of opening up about your doubts. That is the only way forward and you have taken a giant step in the right direction. I hope I can be an encouragement to you.

To begin, I am 100% certain that God loves you, Rebecca. I know it from His Word and I know it from the fact that He brought you to the website to watch this video.

He loves you so much that He doesn’t want you to stay stuck in your anger and hurt. He wants to set you free. He wants you to experience His love, really feel it.

I don’t think you watching this video was an accident. I think God wanted to get your attention. I think you have believed some lies about Him that have blinded you to His never-stopping, never-giving-up, always-and-forever love for you. I think that is the source of your disconnect. His love for you has been shining brightly this whole time, but some clouds have covered it over and it feels like He isn’t there.

The good news is that you can ALWAYS start over with God. You ALWAYS get a do-over. You ALWAYS can wipe the slate clean and start afresh. You can never mess up so bad that He won’t welcome you gladly.

So, how do you come to Him? You don’t start by getting yourself all fixed up. You don’t start by working hard to forgive your abusers and then saying, “Okay God, I’ve finally forgiven my abusers and made myself presentable. Will you love me now?”

No!

You just come running to Him, covered in your anger, your hurt, your brokenness. You throw yourself into His arms (mess and all) and say, “I can’t forgive them on my own, I can’t fix my problems on my own, I can’t do this anymore by myself, I need you.”

You see, God does ask us to forgive others. He asks us to do many things because He loves us. He wants you to forgive your abusers, not as some kind of test of your devotion, some painful way of proving your obedience, but because He cares for you so much. He doesn’t want you to be hurt twice, once by the abuse and again by your anger. He knows that forgiveness is your way out, like removing a deep splinter that’s causing infection and disease in your heart.

And guess what? He doesn’t expect you to have the strength to forgive them on your own. He doesn’t expect you to forgive them first and come to Him second. In Ephesians 4:32 we read, “And be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you.”

Do you see it? God’s forgiveness of our sins and acceptance and love for us comes first — before our forgiveness of others. It is the foundation we must stand on if we want to forgive those who abuse and wrongfully use us.

So, yes, God does require forgiveness, because He loves us and He knows that an unforgiving spirit will destroy us and others. And what’s more the Bible does say that if we refuse to forgive those who sin against us, God will not forgive our sins.

But we must read the Bible as a whole, not just isolated verses. The Bible makes it clear that salvation is a free gift of grace, not the results of works. We don’t save ourselves or earn forgiveness by forgiving others. No, we just come to Jesus, as we are: broken, angry, hurting people — and He accepts us and helps us to heal.

And when we have accepted God’s forgiveness and love — truly accepted it and experienced it — we cannot help but extend that forgiveness and love to others. Forgiving your abusers, Rebecca, is the result of truly accepting that God loves and forgives you — not the means by which you earn God’s love and forgiveness.

And all this time, it seems you may have gotten that backwards. You have struggled with accepting God’s love because you haven’t yet forgiven your abusers. You feel like He won’t love (or can’t love you) until you get that figured out. But the reverse is actually true. You are struggling to forgive your abusers because you haven’t yet accepted God’s love and forgiveness for you personally.

Pastor John Piper writes, “God’s forgiveness is underneath ours and creates it and supports it. So that if we don’t give it to others—if we go on in an unforgiving spirit—what we show is that God is not there in our lives. We are not trusting him.”

http://www.desiringgod.org/sermons/as-we-forgive-our-debtors

So, yes, it’s true. Not forgiving others does show that we have not been truly forgiven. But it does not keep us from being forgiven, Rebecca! It does not block us from God’s love — it demonstrates our desperate need for God.

God invites you, right now, to come to Him with your weariness, with your burdens, with your anger, with your hurt, with all your mistakes and problems. He can and will give you rest. And it starts with repenting for your own sins and receiving, truly accepting, that He loves and forgives you for EVERYTHING. It starts with trusting that Jesus Christ, the Son of God, suffered abuse Himself and forgave His abusers, so that He could rescue those who are abused and lovingly help them forgive too.

There is nothing in your way, Rebecca. Nothing you need to do first. Just believe that Christ has done the work for you. He died for your sins, so you don’t have to. He forgives you for all the wrong you have done and will help you forgive others. It all comes from Him, none of it has to come from you. It is a free gift of grace.

Anyway, I didn’t mean to write you an entire book. But I hope this has been helpful. Please let me know if anything I said was confusing or unhelpful. I’ll keep checking back and will respond as soon as I can.

Well said Julie…well said!

My wife reminded me of something else, Rebecca. A big part of trusting God enough to forgive others is to remember that God will make everything right. There will be justice. Forgiving your abusers does not ultimately let them off the hook (and it doesn’t preclude ensuring they face the earthly consequences their actions deserve either) — it just lets you move on. Does that make sense?

How do you know that Brittany didn’t have a relationship with God?

Julie, it is entirely possible that our cultures collective thinking is shifting from finding dignity in the fight for life to supposing there is more dignity in expediting death. There are broad reaching implications in that shift that would redefine our value of life and the individual as a whole. I agree with much of what you have to say, but the gospel in practice and principle does apply to our here and now. Within this shift of values, I believe Brett offers good news by informing the young subscribers to this site that there is an alternative to a current trend. I thank him for the hope he gives in that.

There are paradoxes in the Christian faith that on their face are hard to comprehend. An intrinsic connection between pain and suffering and love and beauty really does exist. Death and suffering are not wished upon anyone, but the reality is that all of our lives will be touched by both and to find the love and beauty within that reality is a gift.

I have traveled a bit. I’ve seen immense beauty and enjoyed great celebration, but my life would be vapid without the extraordinary depth of truth and love experienced in the midst of messy, messy suffering. There is hope in suffering. That is gospel.

It’s all in the presentation of your position. I’m not saying you, personally, do this — but many Christians do. Rather than make a statement like, “that choice might be right for that person, but I think I would do differently because of my beliefs,” but instead statements are made that sound more like, “that person did something sinful and God will punish them.” Statements like that aren’t about what the Christian would do, they aren’t authentic, and they are purely based upon a singular interpretation of a singular ideology. I think it’s wonderful that Christians and others of different faiths find meaning, hope, and direction from their beliefs, but outwardly projecting those ideas onto others is where I object. This is why I say a better path is speaking to your own reality and employing modesty by realizing not everyone needs or wants to believe as you (Christians) do. Leading by example and giving dignity to the choices others make while sticking to your own path will make your audience more receptive to your message — and isn’t that the real goal? When you remove the implied judgement, you leave the conversation open for discussion and remove the adversarial nature.

Thank you Madeleine. I did watch the videos of Clayton, he was a great kid who showed courage and dignity in his own way. I hope that he met his unfortunate death in the most peaceful way possible, feeling like he accomplished something worthwhile.

I’m glad you understand my perspective on having an opinion with this woman’s choices, as many do not. I know Brett didn’t directly mean any offense with his story, and his update to the story makes that very clear — but that is a symptom of the problem. I think in this world today, we’ve been trained to think it’s our duty and obligation to chime in on every subject. We went too far on the quest of making everyone feel important to the point where now folks feel their opinion is of the highest regard and it must be known to all. We’ve removed the ideas of privacy, modesty, and filtering one’s thoughts with the modern world we live in… some aspects of that are good, others not so much. I have done it, too. Then one day, I realized that I was investing interest in a person’s story who I didn’t know, and that didn’t affect me at all. I was casting judgement for no purpose — it wasn’t in defense of an innocent, over a cause that affected the country or a segment of the population — I had no pony in that race. That is what I feel has happened with Brittany’s story. It’s sad. Thank you again for taking the time to understand my perspective.

I think you make a valid point. Jesus never told his followers to require the world to live by God’s standards. I do think it’s okay to use the choices we see others make as an opportunity to have a conversation.

Hey Becky, I have a question for you,
If there is no right or wrong, how can you be right in saying that?

Thank you so much. What you have written means more to me than I can say in words. You have given me a lot to think about. I wanted to ask a question about this statement.

“God invites you, right now, to come to Him with your weariness, with
your burdens, with your anger, with your hurt, with all your mistakes
and problems. He can and will give you rest. And it starts with
repenting for your own sins and receiving, truly accepting, that He
loves and forgives you for EVERYTHING. It starts with trusting that
Jesus Christ, the Son of God, suffered abuse Himself and forgave His
abusers, so that He could rescue those who are abused and lovingly help
them forgive too.”

What if I am the exception and it does not apply to me? Can you think of any reason why what you, your wife, and Julie wrote and thought would not apply to me?

I’m so glad it encouraged you, Rebecca!

The answer to your question is absolutely not. There are absolutely no exceptions to that invitation. There are no pre-conditions. There are no requirements. There is no pit too deep for God to reach into. There is no gap too wide for Him to reach across. There is no way for any person to get so dirty that Jesus would not welcome them into His arms. His love and grace is just that big. =)

How can anyone be right? Are you right? Am I right? There is NO right or wrong, because it all revolves around an unproven factor. That is my answer, and I am done on this topic. Ask again, and I will just ignore you. I’ve said my peace, and do not want to debate because YOU aren’t going to change my mind, and I am not going to change YOUR mind…to each their own. End of story.

Very well, Becky,

You still have not answered my question and you will not ever be able to answer it because you cannot answer when the stance that you have been deceived by is a complete contradiction. I am not saying this to make you look bad, I am saying this to explain the truth.

Even with that, I will drop the matter, for the sake of keeping the peace. I hope that one day you will reevaluate the logic in the position that has decieved you so you can see the truth.

Because the truth is real whether you believe in it or not and the truth has real consequences.

Agreed, Julie, we do not intentionally set out to suffer, but when faced with that unwanted cup, we have an opportunity to accept it in faith believing. Christ was our perfect example in this.

Thank you Sam. I guess I have to make a choice, Either I continue to believe what others have said about me or I choose to believe you, Brett, and Julie.

Decision Time

So right now I can invite God into my life? Repent and receive his love and forgiveness. Start believing in God. Is that right?

So what do I do Brett?

You love God by loving others and enjoy the promises of God as you come to more firmly believe them (& Him) over time.

You didn’t mean that you wanted to know how to experience
the love of God?

May I ask your age?

You are no bother, Rebecca. You are a delight. It’s a privilege to get to speak with you, even if only over the internet. I asked your age only because I know that hormones are a real and serious factor in making us feel confused and even irrational. It’s nothing to take lightly, although some don’t realize how much that can have an impact on our feelings and ultimately our thoughts and decisions.

Well, you sound pretty firm on leaving this particular conversation, so I’ll offer you with this thought. The fastest way to heal is to set out to heal others.

If you want to continue to talk, it would be a pleasure.

Peace to you.

Rebecca, you are certainly free to leave, but please know that none of us want you to leave. None of us have felt anything but love and concern for you. You have not been a bother. We are happy to talk to you and we are all real people who really know God and want to help you.

Brett,

You touched on something I was just thinking about. I like to imagine each of you in your own surroundings with your own life experiences in order to keep in mind that I’m speaking with real people here. It humbles me, it softens my overall approach, and it warms my heart, really, knowing that on the other side of my typing is someone typing who is just like me in so many ways. I hope Rebecca realizes we are real people who are truly praying for her and who have been in similar abusive life situations. I pray she does not feel alone where no one can relate to her in this world where sometimes we feel so, so alone and that no one could possibly understand.

Rebecca. Before I reply to your questions I wanted to know if you would rather just Brett take the conversation from here? It’s ok with me, I just wanted to know your preference. I’m here to answer, but I don’t want to confuse you.

Charlene,

There is no reason for Brittany to encourage others to “live for Christ” if she didn’t really embrace what Clayton embraced about Christ. Her choice only seems to lack bravery if she believed as Clayton did. And even if a believer chooses to take his/her life like Brittany, we have no genuine authority to say they lack bravery until we, too, walk in those same shoes.

Also, she didn’t “encourage others to die like her”; she simply advocates that there be a choice. She would not have wanted Clayton’s choice taken from him, she simply wouldn’t want her choice taken from her.

Julie, With that logic you sound like a pro-choice. While screaming to have your right to choose you take the life of another. She did lack bravery she took what she thought to end her suffering. That’s not bravery. God’s word says…’Thou shalt not kill’. Endure till the end. She pick the one of disobedience vs. the one that would have saved her soul. Yes, she did encourage others to die with dignity as she put it. She advocate a choice of DEATH. Clayton chose God’s will to be done. She choose her will to be done. We are even told to pray that ‘God’s will be done’. Think about it.

The longer I continue to talk with any of you the more attached I will become. I am like a tick. I will just suck the life out of you. Best just to break ties now before I get in to deep. My only question is.. Does what you said before still apply to me?

What I said before not only applies to you, Rebecca, it is the solution to your problem of getting over-attached to people.

You’re right. We can’t meet your need for love and acceptance. And if we tried we probably would be drained dry — just like each of us would drain other people dry if we tried to satisfy our own need for love and acceptance through them. The only person that never runs dry, who can keep giving and giving without giving up, is Jesus.

If you truly run to Jesus, as I’ve encouraged you before, and truly accept His love, forgiveness, and acceptance of you — it will free you to have healthy relationships with people. Anytime we try to make people take the place of God we drain them dry and disappoint ourselves. But as my dad likes to say, “When we let God be God, everyone else can be human.”

Does that help at all? This doesn’t mean you need to cut us off. You just need to go to Jesus and accept His endless love. That way we can just be support, not your saviors.

That’s just fine, but can I give you one more suggestion? Take a step back and think. But don’t just think. Talk to God about all this. I have found that talking to God (and even talking to myself occasionally) is infinitely better than listening to myself — especially since my own mind likes to tell me many things that are not true. I would guess that is the case for you too.

So don’t just think. Pray. Talk to God about everything. Talk to yourself too if you need to. Don’t let your mind just re-convince you of old lies. Sound good?

I cannot seem to pray tonight.

Rebecca. I don’t want to bother you, but I just had two short things to say, and then that’s it for tonight. I’d still be glad to listen and encourage anyway I can anyday afterward, too.
I know from personal experience prayer is difficult. I’ve struggled with it. It is a discipline. I want you to know two things, it gets easier with practice. And I will be praying for you. Even if you just say a few short things to God tonight, it doesn’t have to be eloquent or anything, just a few short things. He’s listening. Anything you say to Him counts.
Also, I just wanted to ask, do you have a Bible?

Jesus never asked his disciples to enforce God’s standards
upon those who have no interest in following Jesus. And Paul told us that it’s none of our business judging those outside the church; God judges (1 Cor. 5:12-13). And, no, Brittany is not having her mother push it into law that everyone has to make the same decision she made.

Yes Sadie, I do have a Bible. I have been around Christians for a long time. But I have made up this God in my mind that is not real. I am glad that I have finally realized that and I am going to change that.

Julie, I’m not enforcing anything upon you. Neither did Clayton. I’m not holding a gun to your head saying to obey God. You have the freewill to choose this day in whom you will serve as did Clayton & Brittany. Clayton use his last days to serve God. Brittany used her last days to fill her days of pleasure. Again, it is not passng judgment when the evidence is in your face for all to see. By your fruits you are known (Matt.7:16,20). You seem to not get it. Your goal is to call evil good and it will be upon your head for doing so (Isaiah 5:20). Exactly, 1 Cor. 5:1-13… This speaks of Judging ‘Separately’ in & out of body of Christ. You shouldn’t separate the whole matter of what has been said to try & shut the mouth of those who speak LIFE not Death.

By saying she is pushing it into law I was implying get it legal for all states. Nor did I imply that her mother was forcing everyone to make the same decision as Brittany. Her mother is making it available to all who desires to take the path of her daughter. Quit trying to twist the words of God and mine. Everyone who follows the way Brittany did will cause Brittany to reap what she sow in this life to carry over into her spiritual home life. One will reap the crowns of glory while the other reaps the goals of fire (John 4:36; Proverbs 25:22).

Charlene, I’m speaking to you assuming you are a follower of Christ. If you weren’t, I wouldn’t be having this conversation with you, because I wouldn’t necessarily have these same expectations of someone who is not of the faith. People outside the faith can pass harsh judgment and push their opinions as if absolute truth all day long but reminding them of the mercy of God and of His instructions to His followers to refrain from passing judgment on those outside the faith would probably make little difference to them.

You are passing judgment on Brittany using what you believe are God’s standards when you imply she’s a murderer because she did not “endure until the end” (which, by the way, is scripture completely taken out of context) and because she did not follow God’s command “Thou shalt not kill.” Christians who say they adhere to God’s guidelines and then break them by passing judgment on those outside the faith when we’re instructed not to, illustrate a deep-seated hypocrisy within the church; and this self-righteous approach “shuts the kingdom of heaven in people’s faces” (cf. Mt. 23:13) by pushing them further and further from Christ. Why do you think sinners run from church, from us? Because we think we offer life when we point out their dirty sin and make our lofty judgments, but they quickly recognize we’re not any different than the rest of the judgmental world who always has an opinion about others that conveniently makes them feel better about themselves. Why did sinners flock to Jesus? Because he offered words of life, not death, which is what our words often sound like. He did not stand around condemning sinners but went around healing them and offering them words of comfort. The only people Jesus actually harshly condemned were the self-righteous, judgmental religious people.

And, again, Brittany didn’t “encourage others to die like
her” as you said in your first post.

Julia, You may not like how I make the comparison of Brittany vs. Clayton’s fruit. Yet, You call evil good. The scripture you quoted of Matt.23:13 making the claim toward me that I am self righteous & shuts the kingdom of heaven in people’s faces would be to imply I have that kind of power. The Pharisees taught the law, yet broke it by their hidden sins, though they appear to be clean outwardly they were filthy inwardly showing the signs of pridefulness and being unloving as you continue to read in verse 14 for they spare not the widow to give & pretend to pray with an audience. If you kept reading the chapter of Matthew you would have seen why their righteous deeds were rebuke in vs.26. Do you have any evidence that I hold back giving to others? or pretend to pray and do it not?

‘Pharisees’ were an example in God’s word of having an unclean heart. Living righteously was not an example of a hypocrite or wrongfully to do. Amaziah also was an example of having an unclean heart. As it is written:

2 Chronicles 25:2 says…And he did that which was right in the sight of the LORD, but not with a perfect heart.

Matt.23:27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for you are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men’s bones, and of all uncleanness.

Luke 11:39 And the Lord said unto him, Now do you Pharisees make clean the outside of the cup and the platter; but your inward part is full of ravening and wickedness.

Therefore, he lived right but died wrong. Outwardly righteous but inwardly wicked. And since you know not IF my righteous deeds are of a show because you know not my heart you are Judging a sister without a cause & without any evidence. You say I sin because you think I’m judging the wicked? I have been called a WARN the sinners to Repent & Believe in the gospel. If I keep silent of the wrong choices Brittany took and allow others to think it is good like you are doing I would put your blood and others upon my hands for being unloving to show the err. When it comes to speaking of God’s laws they are not a burdensome to the child of God.

Acts 23:3 Then said Paul to him, God shall smite you, you white washed wall: for sit you to judge me after the law, and command me to be smitten contrary to the law?

Matthew 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes & Pharisees, you shall in no case enter into the Kingdom of Heaven.

What is the last verse saying? Make sure you are clean INSIDE as well as OUT. Think on good things withholding no good thing from another. Forgive so that you will be forgiven. Hold no grudges where bitters will grow and choke the life out of you. For good things come from above & the heart should dwell on such things. Whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things (Philippians 4:8).

you said… Why do you think sinners run from church, from us? Because we think we offer life when we point out their dirty sin and make our lofty judgments, but they quickly recognize we’re not any different than the rest of the judgmental world who always has an opinion about others that conveniently makes them feel better about themselves.

my reply… You have a way of calling evil good & good evil. For someone who says she is a Christian and desires to speak to me as one. Likes to pull out the ‘Judge Not’ card like every sinner does. Have you not read…

1 Corinthians 2:15 says… “But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one.”

Psalm 37:30 The mouth of the righteous speaks wisdom, and his tongue talks of judgment.

John 7:24 Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment.

Proverbs 31:9 Open your mouth, judge righteously, and plead the cause of the poor and needy.

you said… Why did sinners flock to Jesus? Because he offered words of life, not death, which is what our words often sound like. He did not stand around condemning sinners but went around healing them and offering them words of comfort. The only people Jesus actually harshly condemned were the self-righteous, judgmental religious people.

my reply… Jesus warn people to repent or perish (Luke 13:3). You have an unbalance message that will be found unworthy (Job 31:6; Proverbs 11:1). For God’s word tells us to warn the sinners to turn from their evil way or that they will perish. I pointed out both comparsion of Clayton vs Brittany the difference of how they choose to take a Walk before their appointed time of death was made. All you do is say, ‘Don’t Judge’. Yet, you think you can judge me for speaking the truth to which you call a lie.

you said… And, again, Brittany didn’t “encourage others to die like her” as you said in your first post.

my reply… AGAIN, when she makes the attempt to pass laws to grant suicide available to others that gives them the courage to take that step. You can deny, deny, deny all you desire, but her legacy is already growing with people saying…’I will do it too IF I end up with a lifethreathing illness’. Her seed of death is growing with her name on it. No worries though your name is attached to it as well as long as you stand up for it too. Remember: You said it was her choice.

Charlene, I never mentioned what I thought of your “comparison of the fruit” between the two sweet souls created by God, so I’m unsure why you would accuse me of doing that in your public post. My comments to you have not been about Clayton’s decision at all but about how you have gone about expressing your opinion of Brittany’s choice being that you proclaim to be a follower of Christ. And I have never expressed my personal approval of Brittany’s choice (what is in your opinion “calling evil good”), so I’m unsure why you would feel the need to publically fabricate that. I’m only hoping to remind you of God’s grief for those plagued by disease, His efforts to destroy its effects on all His creatures, and His call to us, His followers, to show mercy on every human being just as we know He showed to us.

We all have the power to “shut the kingdom in people’s faces” (i.e. push people from Christ). I don’t, however, believe that is the end of the story for those whom we shut out the kingdom.

Just as the Pharisees and rulers of Jesus’ day were bestowed with the honor of taking God’s message to a dying world in need of a Savior, we today, the church made of both Jews & Gentiles, are now bestowed with that same honor. We, too, can teach the law of Christ and break it with our hidden sins; though we appear to be clean outwardly we can be filthy inwardly showing the signs of pridefulness, for pride is not limited to “praying with an audience” and “using some seemingly noble excuse to withhold generosity to those in need.”

We are not called to “warn” sinners to repent and believe; our
calling is not as police warning people to stop at the red light or cause a fatal collision (that is law) but a calling as messengers of light announcing to people that reconciliation and redemption have arrived for all…come and take from the water of life without cost, Rev. 22:17 (that is grace).

I would appreciate some help with being able to accept that this conversation is coming to a close without disregarding it or feeling that the conversation was really not for me. Or that I am an exception and the kind words written are not for me at all. My mom left when I was nine wrote a note saying she could not handle the pressure and I never i saw her again. This kind of feels like the same thing to me because if i never wrote another word you would all go about your lives like nothing happened. I need to learn how to accept closure. Not being able to accept closure makes me trash myself and relationships with others. I will trash this conversation. This time I do not want to do that this whole conversation means to much to me.

Being completely respectful Julie. Yes, the conversation needs to come to a close because it cannot be dragged on, and we have no connection to each other besides this conversation. I am at peace with it ending I just need help saying goodbye.

ill try to check it out later if you don’t mind. Blessings to you

Julia, If you feel that you have no authority to call what Brittany did as “good or evil” then you also have no authority on me. If we didn’t judge by one’s fruits how would we know who not to have fellowship with? For we are told to withdraw or separate ourselves from a fallen brother & to have no fellowship with one who engages in sin for any length of time (2 Thess.3:16-14; Eph. 5:11; 2 Cor.11:12-15). I need Not to Judge Brittany when her Actions Speak Loud Enough (1 Corinthians 6:9,10). Holy Spirit will testify against you, me or anyone for rejecting to do what’s right (James 4:17). My comments have been a Warning to not seek the door of death when you were bought with a price (1 Cor.6:20;7:23). My prayer is that all will seek the Lord before they have their appointment time with death.

2 Corinthians 5:10… For you are judged upon your works on ‘Judgment Day’ for the good or bad you have done in your bodies.

Shalom

I feel this very deep sadness today.

I would still appreciate help that this conversation is coming to a close.

Hey Rebecca! Sorry for not getting to this sooner. We were hosting an event on the website and so I was busy with that — but I saw your comment and was planning to respond.

I was encouraged to see what you wrote about realizing you were praying to the wrong god — an angry god — rather than to the loving God of the Bible. And I was really excited to see you were going to church to learn more about God’s love.

I’d also love to help you with closure about this conversation, but I’m not exactly sure what you mean. I think you already know that ending this conversation doesn’t invalidate anything we’ve said. I think you already know that we care about you and that if we must go our separate ways we are still brothers and sisters in Christ and will meet in Heaven. You just need to accept that. You need to remind yourself of the truth over and over and over if necessary. We are not rejecting you.

And of course, we are still here if you ever need to come back.

Does that help? Or am I misunderstanding what you mean?

Honestly, I was really unsure if what we talked about still applied to me because we are not going to talk again. l really am struggling with knowing that. I still have not prayed to God the prayer you talked about earlier in our conversation. So i am unsure if I am a Christian. I appreciate your response it does help. Thank you.

Hi Sydnie, That’s odd because I used the KJV version.

Oic lol ye is you in today’s convo. I help the audience reading from the kjv I throw the you in to show the meaning of ye 🙂 sorry for the confusion. It implies the same. I go by the kjv and abhor the niv version. js

oh ok lol I really don’t like the other versions either they don’t really compare, they don’t really have the same depth. At least for me.

Agreed & the other version replace the meaning or add/substract from God’s word. I prefer the kjv overall. Blessings to you

There is an assumption here that I just don’t buy: namely, that somehow, suffering is ennobling, or that accepting suffering somehow shows trust in God, in a way that avoiding that suffering does not.

I don’t believe that God put us here to suffer, nor that he desires and is pleased by our suffering. If anything, we are called to show compassion and to relieve the suffering of others. If it weren’t so, then we shouldn’t have any palliative care. We should suck up all the pain and suffering life gives us, avoid all pain relievers that might assuage our suffering. Sorry. No.

Trust and hope in God aren’t demonstrated at the end of our lives by our suffering, but by what we do during them to relieve that of others.

The verse about the man being born blind is misunderstood because of the way it’s worded in some versions. The original verse does not say “so that” God’s works might be revealed. A more accurate rendering reads, “But let the works of God be manifested.” To say otherwise is to say that God intentionally made this man blind for most of his life just so God could heal him on this day. I’m sure there were others blind who Jesus could have healed. Were they, too, intentionally made blind by God but never healed by Jesus? Or the others weren’t made blind by God, but God chose to blind this one man for most of his life even though there were others from which to choose. Blindness, along with all sickness and disease, is the oppressive work of the devil (1 John 3:8; Luke 13:16: Heb. 2:14). Surely, God doesn’t need to add to the devil’s oppressive works “so that” He can be glorified through it. Jesus went around healing those oppressed by the devil (Acts 10:38). God would be working against Himself if He had been the one that caused this man’s blindness.

Roy is right—God didn’t put us here to suffer. If we do suffer (which is inevitable in this life), God will work to bring something good out of it. As said, we are called to show compassion and to relieve the suffering of others as we follow God’s example in Jesus.

What makes you think it is a case-by-case basis? I don’t have any reason to believe this was the norm, especially since Job is written as a wisdom story to make an overall point, similar to a parable.

Sam, what makes you think that “sin cannot be in His presence”?
I’m curious where that theology comes from. Jesus spent quite a bit of time in the presence of sinners.

GOD IS LOVE……period. Love is not judgmental, love doesn’t have only one book….and one day that moment of real awakening will come, sinner and saint a like….God knows our hearts and if our HEARTS are pure and loving then love is what we will receive. Despite all….GOD IS LOVE….love does not judge, prejudice, ignorance and hatred judges, but not love and not God.

Ohh, man sam, I think my favorite line in Lorie’s comment is, “trust me”. I read that and was like, “firstly I don’t even know you, and secondly I’ve never met you.” So… Why should I just trust random people when they say “trust me”? Haha lol, gotta kick outta that! Have a good day! ~Grant

I’m afraid that’s exactly what others say about us. Isn’t that what we’re telling people? Trust us? We know that the Bible is true, etc. etc.

Yeah, just like Grant and Sam both said, God the Father cannot be in the presence of sin. I thought back to when Jesus was on the cross. He cried out “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” That is the only time you find Jesus say “My God” instead of “Father”. That is because when Jesus was on the cross, He became our sin. Therefore, Jesus and the Father could not be united, God had to turn away from the Son. I believe that more than anything else that seperation was the true torture and pain for Jesus on the cross.

That’s purely conjecture.

Jesus says, “My God my God” because he is quoting Scripture (Psalm 22). The Psalmist is experiencing such agony that he feels as if he’s forsaken but he’s not. “But You, O Lord, be not far off; O You my help, hasten to my assistance” (Psalm 22:19).

Those standing around Jesus were saying, “He trusts in God;
let God rescue him now, if He delights in him; for he said, ‘I am the son of God’” (Mt. 27:43). Compare this with Psalm 22:8, “Commit yourself to the LORD; let Him deliver him; let Him rescue him, because He delights in him.” Jesus then quotes Psalm 22:1, and those who know the Psalm know that God has not forsaken His servant and will “deliver his soul from the sword,” which God did.

Hi Julie,

I am sorry that I did not respond to you right away, but I wanted to carefully think out and pray over if and how I was
going to answer you. I do not want to put anyone down, and I do not wish to start a fight. However, I have chosen to reply to what you said about my comment, because I do believe that what I said can be backed up by scripture. I do hope you will read this and consider what I have to say. I would like to conduct this in a way that will honor God and bring Him glory, even if we disagree.

Yes, Jesus was quoting Psalm 22, but if that separation of the Son and the Father were not to have taken place then let me ask you this:

How are we able to be made right with God?

God cannot be in the presence of sin. When Jesus went to the cross He took on our sin – Jesus became sin. (2 Corinthians 5:21) If Jesus was our sin and God cannot be with sin, then at that moment in history Jesus and God could not be together.

Jesus took our sin, and the punishment for our sin is death (Romans 6:23) which means separation from God Ephesians 2:1-13 [especially verse 13]). Jesus died on the cross to pay that punishment for us so that we would not have to. (Isaiah 53:5) If the price to pay for sin is being separated from God and Jesus paid the price for our sin, then He would have had to go through that. If He did not, His death on the cross would not have worked as payment for our sins and we would have no forgiveness.

They were not separated forever. When Jesus resurrected, He went back to be with His Father (Luke 20:17) and that is where He is right now. (Luke 24:51, Hebrews 12:2)

You referred to Matthew 27:43 which says:
He trusts in God. Let God rescue him now if he wants him, for he said, ‘I am the Son of God.’”

However, if you back up two verses you will see that the verse is what the people were saying to mock Jesus on the cross; not what actually happened:

In the same way the chief priests, the teachers of the law and the elders mocked him. “He saved others,” they said, “but he can’t save himself! He’s the king of Israel! Let him come down now from the cross, and we will believe in him. He trusts in God. Let God rescue him now if he wants him, for he said, ‘I am the Son of God.’”
– Matthew 27:41-43 NIV

Also, that verse (v43) where they say “Let God rescue him” is before the time when Jesus cries out “My God why have you forsaken me?” (v46) So, I do not believe that the people are responding to what Jesus said.

Thank you for your time, and have a blessed day!

In Christ,
Amanda (Ps. 46:10)

I am sorry that I did not respond to you right away,…

Oh, no worries about that.

I do not want to put anyone down, and I do not wish to start a fight.

This is not something I feel defensive about in the least. It’s an opportunity to sharpen our understanding of what is and what is not taught in Scripture.

Yes, Jesus was quoting Psalm 22, but if that separation of the Son and the Father were not to have taken place then let me ask you this:

How are we able to be made right with God?

You’ve begun with a presupposition, that separation must take place to be made right, and then you look for ways in Scripture that support this presupposition. Speaking from experience, this is not the best way to go about studying if we want to avoid adding our own ideas to Scripture.

The wages of sin is death (Rom. 6:23), not “separation.”

With sin comes decaying of the soul, and the outcome is death (Rom. 6:16, 21). Every man sins and each experience this initial decaying of the soul. If we continue in this way, it will lead to death. Death is just that, it’s death. And death is permanent. Jesus did not experience this decaying of the soul, but he did experience death. Death could not hold him; death was not permanent for him.

God cannot be in the presence of sin. When
Jesus went to the cross He took on our sin – Jesus became sin. (2 Corinthians 5:21) If Jesus was our sin and God cannot be with sin, then at that moment in history Jesus and God could not be together.

You’ve begun, again, with an assumption, that God cannot be in the presence of sin, took a verse (2 Cor. 5:21) and created your own idea of what took place: “at that moment Jesus and God could not be together.”

We see “God in the presence of sin” when Job goes into God’s presence and speaks to Him directly. We also see it in Isaiah 6:5-7 and 2 Chronicles 18:18-21.

When the guilt of the people was transferred to the sacrificial lamb on the Day of Atonement, the lamb didn’t become sinful; sin was assigned to the lamb and it acted as a sacrificial substitute. It’s in this way that Jesus acted on our behalf. Jesus didn’t actually become sinful; sin was assigned to him and he acted as a sacrificial substitute. Jesus remained without sin (Heb. 4:15; 1 John 3:5); his essential nature never became tainted by sin. Jesus was made to be our sin substitutionally, not literally.

To say that Jesus and God were “not together” is to say that Jesus stopped being God. “Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever” (Heb. 13:8).

Jesus took our sin, and the punishment for our sin is death (Romans 6:23) which means separation from God

Death means death. Jesus died.

…which means separation from God Ephesians 2:1-13 [especially verse 13]).

You’re reading your own ideas into this, because you’ve
begun with a false assumption. As we read the context, we see that the Gentiles were the ones “far off” (v. 13)—they were the uncircumcision (v. 11) and thus “excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God with the world” (v. 12). But Christ made BOTH groups (circumcision & uncircumcision) into one (v. 14) and by his blood he brought the Gentiles “near” (v. 13) and gave them all access in one Spirit to the Father (v. 18). So, then, now the Gentiles are no longer strangers and aliens (vs. 19) to the covenants of promise but are fellow citizens with the Jewish saints. This is the “mystery” to which Paul was referring in Eph. 3:3-6—how by his blood he broke down the wall that separated the two groups thus bringing the Gentiles near giving them access to God in the same way the Jews had access, and how the Gentiles were now included with the Jews in the one “new man,” body of Christ.

If the price to pay for sin is being separated
from God…

The wages of sin is death (Rom. 6:23), not “separation.” If
you change the meaning, you may end up creating your own ideas that are not taught in Scripture.

If He did not, His death on the cross would not have worked as payment for our sins and we would have no forgiveness.

The wages of sin is death. Jesus died.

However, if you back up two verses you will see that the verse is what the people were saying to mock Jesus on the cross; not what actually happened:

God did rescue him. He rose from the dead.

Also, that verse (v43) where they say “Let God rescue him” is before the time when Jesus cries out “My God why have you forsaken me?” (v46) So, I do not believe that the people are responding to what Jesus said.

I didn’t say the people are responding to Jesus. I said, “Those standing around Jesus were saying, ‘He trusts in God; let God rescue him now, if He delights in him; for he said, “I am the son of God”’ (Mt. 27:43)…Jesus then quotes Psalm 22:1.”

In verse 14 of Revelation 20, it says that the second death is the lake of fire. All we’re told is that death and Hades, and those not found in the book of life are thrown into the lake of fire, the second death. In my opinion, this suggests a complete end to death and Hades, and those not found in the book of life. There will no longer be any death (death & Hades go hand-in-hand, cf. Rev. 6:8), and there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain (the oppressive reign of the wicked will be gone). Compare with Rev. 21:4.

The Bible tells us what death is like for the wicked. The wicked are destroyed forever (Psalm 92:7) and like smoke, they will vanish away (Psalm 37:20).

WOW. Absolutely amazing. Only God can work in such incredible ways as that. How is it even possible to live every day of your life like it’s your last? That is a challenge to us all. It will now be something I pray for every day, to be more like Clayton MacDonald. What an unbelievable story. About the whole reaching around the world thing, I can testify- I’m from Britain. What a Good God we have.

Hello again.

Yes, our sins do separate us from God. And our sins do hinder our prayers (it’s the prayers of a righteous man that can accomplish much, James 5:16). That doesn’t mean God can’t “be in the presence” of sin or that our sin judicially assigned to Jesus separated him from God. I don’t doubt, though, that Jesus felt a sense of forsakenness in his agony. He was human with real pain sensors and real emotions, after all.

Our sin separates us from God because sinning is willfully walking away from rather walking toward God. Actually, “repent” carries the meaning of turning away from sin and moving toward God. Jesus didn’t sin. He didn’t willfully
walk away from God by sinning. So, the sin he judicially carried on our behalf didn’t separate him from God.

And, yes, Jesus’ death and resurrection brought reconciliation that our sin had ruined. Man had separated himself from God through his sin, and Jesus reconciled mand and God (repaired the severed relationship) through the cross. Just a side note: we don’t “get into heaven”; heaven will come down to earth and there will be a heavenly kingdom on earth.

I’m not sure if your last comment is a question or just a comment. Predestination and free will can be reconciled when predestination is understood the way Israel understood it. The God question isn’t so easy; that’s a big question that can be explored another time.

By the way, I like your cheery attitude. 🙂

Thanks, Liam. 🙂

Good morning, Julie,
After much talking it all over,
Trent, Sam, Grant, and I no longer feel that we can discuss these topicswith you anymore, not because we cannot answer your objections with sound,Biblical answers, but because, even after talking with you multiple times and
showing you the truth, you have not been listening.

So, we will give you what you want: we will all leave you alone.

Our last bit of warning is this: Matthew 18:6 – “But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.”

As well as this: 1Timothy 6:3-4 – “If anyone teaches false
doctrines and does not agree to the sound instruction of our Lord Jesus Christ and to godly teaching, he is conceited and understands nothing. He has an unhealthy interest in controversies and quarrels about words that result in envy, strife, malicious talk, evil suspicions”.

Whether you realize it or not, your controversial comments are causing at least some of the young people watching these comments to stumble, especially for those who are honestly seeking the truth.

You claim to represent what the Bible truly teaches, but
then you say it doesn’t actually mean what it says. We’re sorry, but in Proverbs 30:5-6, it clearly says: “Every word of God is flawless; he is a shield to those who take refuge in him. Do not add to his words, or he will rebuke you and prove you a liar.”

For these reasons, we will not be discussing at all with you anymore, on this post. It is a waste of our time, which could be spent doing other, more effective, things for Christ.

You will no doubt respond to this comment with a snide remark or challenge for us to continue in this pointless argument. We’re sorry, but we’re are finished and
will be letting you have the last word.

We say these things in the deepest possible respect to you, not to be cruel or obnoxious, but in the hope that one
day, someone will read these comments and see the truth in the hope of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. We also hold to the hope that perhaps one day you will see the truth of God’s love and gift to any who accept Him.

We hope you have a wonderful day and that God will show you His love and His truth,
-Trent- Rachel – Grant – Sam – of the Rebelution.

OH MY! Sam, it is such an honor to have you here. Thank you for commenting!

Let me apologize for calling your remarks “snide”. I was the one who drafted that response to you. I may have made the wrong assumption that you just wanted to argue or cast doubt on what this website represents. Several of us counseled together because we truly are concerned for you as well as the other readers on this site. The bottom line is, the founders and supporters of this site, believe that Salvation can only come through the conviction that Jesus is God and receiving Him as Lord and Savior. We are compelled to defend this truth, because it is a matter of life and death. Once again, we hope you will come to realize this truth as a foundation of your faith. I also hope our comments have not pushed you further from the truth.
– Trent

Thanks, Sam. You are forgiven.

Age does not always experience life experience. While age can make it more likely that you have life experience (eg Wisdom) It does not mean that you are wise. For instance, would you not agree that are some elderly people that are horribly Racist? And Experiences are the greatest Contributer to Wisdom, not age. would you not agree that a child in India that has a starving Mother and siblings, no father, and has to provide for his family the best he can has more life experience then a 60 year old person who’s never left the country?

They were both dying of cancer…one decided to shorten her suffering by killing herself and the other decided to make the most of the short time he had left and use it to share the gospel with as many people as possible.

Your right.
I’ve met lots of people like that.

I watched this video and it changed the way I think about death, fear, and faith. Clayton was very brave, determined, and faithful to God. I pray that if anything happens to me that I would have the strength to do what he did.

Hi ! my name is Jose, i am from Colombia….. I want to belong this rebelution, i want to be part this new generation !!! help me !!! i want to different..

Hey Sam !! good morning in Colombia haha,I am reading “do hard things” is amazing, the do hard things to changed my form of see the world !! 🙂 God bless you Sam … Thanks

Totally true!!! Suffering makes us stronger, even though in the beginning God didn`t create us to go through bad stuff, he intended for us to live in a perfect world. But sin did enter into the world through Adam and Eve, so we have to accept that as a part of life. We shouldn`t let it get us down, or make us depressed, because we do know that God is with us in those times of suffering. He will never forsake us, especially when we are hurting. But I totally agree with what you said!! Keep it up!!

Just remember Kate, don’t pray to be like Clayton MacDonald. Pray to be like Jesus. The only good in Clayton is because he is reflecting his creator, and we can to if we decide to do everything we do for him.

Hey Brett,
You may never see this… but then again, you may. I’ve read through the comments on here, and I’m impressed at the apparent calmness with which you took the anger and defensiveness of those who disagreed.

Thanks, John!

I know this post is old but I just wanted to say thank you for sharing. I’m new to Rebelution and it was my first time seeing this video. Clayton’s story is so beautiful! He reminds me of my brother Crockett. Crockett had West syndrome and even though he couldn’t walk or talk he taught me and my family so much. He showed us first hand that pain can be used for good. He’s been gone for almost 8 years now but I know someday I’ll see him again.