Articles gender_wars

Published on November 5th, 2014 | by August Buehrer

Can We STOP The Gender Wars?





Ready for a peace rally? Of all the reasons people fight, one of the worst, I think, is because some are male and some are female. Why can’t we just relax and get along?

There is something wrong about feminism. We know that as Christians. But sometimes we take it for granted and don’t stop to think about what it is. Just what is it that makes feminism wrong?

Well, what makes anything wrong?

Think about this: Most feminists are women. I notice there’s always a tone of, “Look what they do to us! We can’t let them do this to us. We deserve better,” when it comes to feminism. It becomes a concern for yourself, and you become obsessed with it to the point that you get defensive when someone does something as innocent as using the word “he” when describing a random someone when it should technically be “he or she.” Doesn’t that strike you at all as a slight obsession with self?

So, returning to the question of what makes anything wrong, just what is at the base of all Christian morality? The new commandment, right? Love one another. It’s as simple as that. Can you effectively love others when all you can do is worry that you might not be getting fair treatment? I don’t think so. God doesn’t make arbitrary rules. The reason for anything being condemned is that in some way, it grates against the new commandment.

In light of the fact that this is really the simple problem with any wrong philosophy, is the way we’re responding right? To me, there’s always seemed to be something a little off about this obsession with getting the gender roles just so.

It happens a lot even on this blog. We make some kind of reference to knights and chivalry. (Chivalry, by the way, didn’t originally mean consideration for the fair sex, but for enemies. Interesting shift of meaning.) Then we go on and start trying to put it into modern context and get a little hung up on the door-opening thing. After that, we quickly run out of concrete examples. Sometimes we resort to going into how wrongly the culture portrays men now days. And it’s “Look what they do to us!” all over again.

As I was researching for this article, I found a curious thing. It seems we give this subject vastly more attention than the Bible does. There’s only a handful of verses of the subject of gender-roles. Actually, the Bible says more about donkeys. Why would we be so intent on emphasizing anti-feminism? Might we be getting slightly defensive?

Some people might find this article provocative. Another issue with this subject is it tends to get people arguing. After all, it’s difficult not to get emotionally involved in it. It’s a little personal. We’re all either one or the other sex, you know. (Sorry, it’s true.) It’s difficult not to get defensive when we start telling each other how to be. Even within the separate schools of thought, there are dozens of hair-splitting disagreements. You have to step back and think, “Am I really doing this for the good of the Kingdom of God? Or do I have my own interests in mind?”

You probably have your own opinions on this. You may have just come in from the streets still voiceless from screeching over some women’s rights issue. Or maybe you think all the world’s problems could be solved if women would all dress up in Jane-Austen inspired gowns and stand around waiting for men to open doors and pull up chairs for them. Maybe you’re like me, and are just a little puzzled by what all the fuss is about.

But in all this, are we missing the point? It’s a bit of a red herring, don’t you think? Not that I don’t know jolly well why it comes up so much. Young people are interested in their relationships with the opposite sex, and the wise ones want to get it right. (There are a lot of Amish dime novels you might enjoy as well.) But don’t get too distracted. We’ve got to keep our focus straight, and we’re going to have to stand together more than apart to do it. Hair-spitting will get us nowhere. Bitterness will get us nowhere.

You know… All I’m saying is “give peace a chance!”


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Photo courtesy of MCAD Library and Flickr Creative Commons.












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About the Author

is one of five other equally uncanny children living in a brambly forest in northeastern Indiana. She enjoys writing, making music, creating art, scaring the neighbors (those that stayed), and dancing by the light of the moon. She is fascinated by the great expanse of the universe and intent upon the pursuit of God.



  • Liam

    In response to the title: We can’t stop anything about that really, it’s all a matter of opinion. Everyone has the “I’m always right” somewhere inside. And it’s hard for them to admit their wrong (even if they are wrong) because of that. You’re right, on this issue it’s hard not to get personal, and to not argue. That’s why I think I shall stay away from the discussion on this subject (in the comments) because I have my own strong opinion.

    • The Raven Winked Darkly

      In response to your response. The title was altered from my original.
      “STOP the war of the sexes” imperative. I’m pointing out that as Christians we shouldn’t fuss about the war or join in for any reason. It involves a major “poor me” victim complex.

  • Sam

    Good article

  • Madeleine Grace

    Hey this is a great article and i think your so right August about feminism being about self and not about the right’s. I think it’s so ridiculous all these women saying why do men get payed more for the same job that i’m doing? my response is just like well sweetheart do you have to support a family? most likely not. i know i know their are a lot of single moms out their and i get that but still come on. we’re not entitled to everything. and we do need to love everyone regardless of what they believe Jesus did it so what’s our excuse not to?
    God Bless
    ~Madeleine

    • Emma Johnston

      Dear Madeline,
      As a feminist I want to tell you that it should not matter whether someone is supporting a family or not- everyone should get the same pay if they are doing the same job. Lets say both people have the same job– Should a past criminal single man get paid more than a single mother? I would say no. Should a gay man get paid more than a married women who cannot have children? I would say no. Should a married man with three children get paid more than a women who is a stripper on the side? I would say no. This is because pay should be based on what job someone is performing. In addition I do try to love everyone, and while I have a different opinion from you, I can see how you reached your consensus.
      Thank you,
      Emma (15 years old)

      • Madeleine Grace

        Hey Emma,
        I do understand that and i do agree that we should have equal pay, but i also understand why men are being paid more. i mean if it was a job at McDonald’s then yeah i would want to paid the same as a man worker. But if it is at a high up their business then no i wouldn’t. Thank You so much for understanding were i’m coming from. :) i understand your stance as well but i’ve got a question for you: do you support gay rights and why?
        Thank You Again! God Bless!
        ~Madeleine

  • Kat

    Rubbish. If you knew a single thing about feminism you’d realise it’s not about ‘self’, it’s about equality. I am a christian. I am also a feminist. And a believer in gay rights. But that’s another rant.
    Feminism is rights for both sexes. Feminism is taking a stand against rape culture, feminism is seeing that we are all children of god and that we should all be treated the same.
    You may have, in your ‘thorough’ research, come across such a thing as misandry. It’s like the same as misogyny (hatred of woman – a thing that is still common in today’s society) but with men – man haters. Unfortunately for true feminists, these people often label themselves as ‘feminists’ whereas in fact they’re not – they’re just as bad as misogynists.
    So to the article. No, it’s not fair that there are still gender roles. No, it’s not fair that men get paid more money for doing the same job. Don’t try and justify it. Gender is an evolutionary thing, but then so is killing someone because of some trivial issue, and rape – and is that just?
    I’m a feminist. Pure and simple. Perhaps we should change the name to ‘equalist’ or ‘not a sexist’ to lessen misinterpretation but honestly, I think if you love your mothers and wives and sisters and girlfriends and the other women in your lives, you’d a feminist.
    So yes. I AM A FEMINIST. Not such a terrible thing to be nowadays, is it?
    And if you knew a single thing about justice or equality, if you understood Jesus’ message or love, you’d be too.

    • The Raven Winked Darkly

      Are you arguing with me? I can’t tell. Maybe we’re talking about the definition of “feminism”?

      • Kathy the Great

        Yes, I am, August. You evidently didn’t research thoroughly enough, or you would know that the entire premise of your article was based on a rant against misandry, not feminism.
        I guess I’m not explicitly arguing with you, merely stating as a fact that everyone who believes in equality and peace and fairness and Jesus’ message is, essentially, a feminist. I’m only arguing with you if you disagree.
        Do your research.

        • The Raven Winked Darkly

          One thing you missed was something I was afraid people might reading this article. The article was not an anti-feminist article. I was telling people to stop trying to tell each other how to be just for the sake of the argument and feeling good about ourselves. This isn’t a political article. (I hate politics.) this is a spiritual article. I wasn’t researching feminism to write it, I was researching the Bible.
          I was actually equally attacking the opposition to feminism. The desire to put people in boxes. I think you would agree with what I’m saying if you thought about it that way.

    • Rubbish. If you knew a single thing about feminism you’d realise it’s not about ‘self’, it’s about equality. I am a christian. I am also a feminist. And a believer in gay rights.

      I made it about that far, then hit dislike.

      Women are great (in fact, i’m gonna mary one some day!), but I do believe that God made Male and Female special, with their own jobs they were created to do. A woman’s job is to have children and raise them up, and keep the house in order, however in some cases the women have really stepped up and went, “above and beyond the line of duty.” which is great, because sometimes we really need them to.

      Men have their special jobs too, god said to Adam, “now you shall toil in the field” [in my words], Men are supposed to work hard and provide for their families. My dad always has said, “I love working, because it is doing what I was created to do.”

      I don’t want to start a big fight, but I think you deserve to know the truth, Kathy.

      If you believe that being “Gay” is OK then you need to read your bible!
      #SodomAndGohmorrah

      • Sam

        Isn’t the woman’s job to be the “helper” (in this case one who surrounds, protects, aids, helps, supports) for man? That easily includes a little more than takink care of kids and the home. This isn’t really my point though. My point is that the woman should be the complement to the man. Remember when God said that it was not good? It was when the man was alone. So God created woman, and it was very good.

        I’m really not looking for an argument; I just want to find out if you meant exactly what you said without clarification.

        • yes Sam you’re right, if I would have had more time this morning I would have included that.

          • Sam

            OK

          • The Raven Winked Darkly

            Have you guys heard that the word “helper” used for Eve is also used for the Holy Spirit elsewhere in the Bible? I thought that was interesting. Just as the role of the Spirit is mysterious, so are our roles, not only in reference to gender, but in reference to individuals.

      • I completely agree with you, Grant!

      • Sadie Clements

        Hallelujah! I got as far as “I got as far as that and hit the dislike”, and hit the like button. 😉
        Kathy the Great, you do have some things you need to work on from a biblical standard. I think if we all payed less attention to ‘equality’ in the human sense of the word we would all be better off for it. Pay attention to the Bible; it’s the all-authoritative word of God. And in it there are clear roles listed. for male and female. And there’s a lot in it that says being gay is wrong. Not getting into that because it’s a discussion that gets a lot of people up at arms, and I’m not interested in arguing; I merely want to see God’s word represented correctly. So, like Grant said, please, read your Bible. Leviticus 18:22. Leviticus 20:13. Romans 1:18-32. 1 Corinthians 6:9-11. And so many more. It’s so clear, Kathy. God knows I love all my fellow brethren in Christ, but I love God even more. Please do not take offense. His word must be accurately represented.
        Grant, you’re correct in standing up for the different roles of men and women, and I applaud you for that.

      • Madeleine Grace

        Amen Grant about the Gay thing. Spot on! :)
        ~Madeleine

      • Hey, Grant, you may want to put the first paragraph in quotation marks. Because at first, I thought you were the one saying that at first. God bless, dude!
        – Trent

        • Ha, OK :)

        • can’t, not sure why…

          • Hmm. The only time I had a problem with not being able to edit my comment is when someone has featured it. What kind of problem are you experiencing?

          • OK, I put quotations on… hit save edit… and suddenly the quotations that were just before mine eyes… Vanished

          • Hmm… I have never seen that before. Please let me know if you find out how to get it to work.
            God bless, dude
            – Trent

      • Jess jesse

        Wow. First of all I get a huge kick out of the war that’s been rocking on here about a article trying to make peace… Umm Grant just a question or two? What about the women that can’t have kids? And how exactly do u know what women are supposed to be doing since your not one? And how really do u have the position to tell them how to do what u think they should? If it’s all in the bible can’t we read it for ourselves and let God do the rest or do we need to hear it from other people? Sorry if I seem rude but that comment kinda shocked me on a article about peace…

        • Hey, sorry it took me a while to reply, I was in a major hurry when I wrote the above comment, but Sam S. Explained what I didn’t have time to (and he did quite good too).

          As too how do I know what women are supposed to do, maybe I don’t, but your proof of me not being a woman is horrid logic, that I don’t feel like dissecting.

          It is all in the bible, I (do my best to) point to the Bible in all my comments.

          And yes, your comment seemed very rude.

          My comment may have shocked some, but I know it was the right thing to say because of how my bros and sisters in Christ agreed, you know amen means “may we end in agreeance” … So amen

    • Hope Dan

      You call yourself a chrisitian?!
      Brett we need some help here!!!

    • If I may, let me just encourage everyone to show the love of Christ in what you say. So someone doesn’t believe what you believe? Share the truth of scripture if you feel prompted by God, but then subsist. Statements beginning with “You….” have the tendency to be far more judgmental than they are truth-proclaiming. If you think someone is wrong, continue gingerly. Perhaps walk away from the computer and come back later.

      There is definitely some truth in what people are saying here, but not once in the conversation have I seen scripture referenced. Without it, it’s just opinion. Lastly, define your terms. It’s the first step of logic, and the one we miss most often. A definition of feminism is “the theory of the political, economic, and social equality of the sexes.” If this is not your definition, I’d suggest choosing a different term. Otherwise you’ll get nowhere.

      Colossians 4:6, Ephesians 4:29

    • To start off, Man was created first. Eve was created by Adam’s rib.
      Feminism has nothing to do with Jesus’ message. Jesus was sent to die for our sins, not create knew ones.
      Just because a rich man has more money, doesn’t mean that I need more money. That rich man worked for his money, and I mine.
      Or, just because the woman down the street got ice cream doesn’t mean the entire world gets ice cream. However, you seem to be thinking that way.
      So in other words, just because men are hard at work making money, doesn’t mean that every woman in the world gets the same pay check. Men are built for hard work. Women are meant to take care of their children.
      What happens then? The children lose their father and mother, because their mom has to get everything her husband has? In other words that’s called being jealous. Being jealous is a sin.
      Through, Jesus Christ everyone has joy.
      Kathy, you could have joy just being who you were created to be. And doing what you were created to do.
      A toy truck can’t become a toy yo-yo. A toy truck is designed to be played with and to put stuff inside of. A yo-yo is designed to do tricks with, etc.
      Why do we have so many devices today? Because each device has a specific design and purpose.
      It’s the same with humans.

      • The Raven Winked Darkly

        Not all jobs that men do require men’s bodies, just thought I’d throw that out there.

    • Madeleine Grace

      Kathy i get what your saying and your entitled to your beliefs and i only say this out of respect. i do believe it’s for men to get paid more doing the same job. why? because men (usually) have family’s to provide for. yes i know what your thinking ‘what about single moms?’ i get that to i’m not taking a side i’m just stating what i believe. women don’t usually have to provide for anybody unless they are single moms or their husband are out of a job. i believe that that is the way in which God created it to be. I’m also a christian, and love the Lord with all my heart and i understand were your coming from. i hope i havn’t offended you anything like that :)
      ~Madeleine

      • Adrienne

        I have to very strongly disagree. Employers should not look into their employee’s personal life to determine how much pay they “deserve.” If I’m a single woman with no financial obligations to anyone but myself and I am working the same job as a man with a family, then I would expect the same pay. Who knows, maybe I have debilitating medical debt? Or maybe a thousand others reasons why workplace discrimination is not ok.

        HOWEVER, I’m not 100% sure the “men get paid more for the same job” is even factually accurate. Most of the data I’ve heard (granted, I’ve done no personal research) is about wage differences over a person’s lifetime. Many women do get less because many quit working when they have children or work less hours in the first place. So we could be discussing something completely irrelevant :)

  • I recently read something about feminism that made a lot of sense. It said that feminism asks all the right questions, but gives all the wrong answers. The home used to be the hub of production, and when factories took over, stay-at-home women started to become trophy wives. Feminism grew because women wanted to have purpose, as they very well should. But the solution has become trying to assert that women are the same as men. They are not, nor should they be.

    One speaker pointed out that the role of each member of the trinity is different, but of equal importance. The same is true of men and women. We have different strengths, weaknesses, and rolls. Each are important, and neither is better than the other. When women try to assert that they are the same as men, they are essentially communicating their belief that women are, in fact, less than. Otherwise there would be no need to become the same.

    I agree that feminism often becomes a self-focused fight to obtain what we feel we deserve. As Christians, that should never be our focus. BOTH genders should be striving to die to self and become servants to others in whichever way the Bible directs. Jesus, who had a RIGHT to be equal with God, made himself a little lower than the angels and died for sinful men. He calls us to follow his example. Perhaps the answer is for men AND women to lay our “rights” on the altar and instead focus on honoring our Lord.

    • The Raven Winked Darkly

      I’ve heard these ideas too. We sometimes forget that back in the day before feminism was big, both men and women worked at home.
      I’m not talking so much about careers and things like that, actually. Just like with the trinity, as soon as you start to pick at things like that, people start fighting and getting offended. I’m pointing out that that’s futile and unchristian behavior.

      • acha648

        Yeah but men still had primary provision responsibility and women child care…

  • The Raven Winked Darkly

    May I say something general? What’s interesting in a sad way about the discussion I’m having with Kathy the Great is that it demonstrates exactly what this article is against. This article is not against one or the other view of gender-roles, this article is against thinking it is. If you are offended by the content, you probably read it wrong. This is not about being anti-feminist. This is about banding together, not taking offence at each other and feeling hurt. Did anyone read it that way?
    God bless all

    • That’s the way I read it, August. Don’t let misunderstandings (or reactive comments) get your down. We’re having quite an influx of new visitors because of the Clayton McDonald video. Not all of them share much in common with us.

      • The Raven Winked Darkly

        Thank you Brett. You rock.

      • Sam

        You got that right.

      • Madeleine Grace

        That’s sure true!

      • Louis Gervais

        Amen to that; Brett rocks! And yes, Raven, you read it right. P.S. – Brett, I saw in that recent article about your wife’s struggling health, and–although I already had a great amount of respect for you–it just made me respect you so much more. Thanks for being obedient to the Lord and–despite human imperfections–setting a God-honoring example. Praise the Lord!

        • Madeleine Grace

          Yes Brett Thank You!! you set such a great example for us as growing teenagers. Your such a blessing to us all! i think we can all agree on that right guys? 😀
          God Bless!
          ~Madeleine

        • Thanks so much, Louis. =)

      • Madeleine Grace

        Yes Brett Thank You!! you set such a great example for us as growing teenagers. Your such a blessing to us all! i think we can all agree on that right guys? 😀
        God Bless!
        ~Madeleine

        (copied and pasted from below. cause i thought i should post it to you directly Brett) 😀

        • I really appreciate that Madeleine. Thank you!

          • Madeleine Grace

            No Brett! Thank You! without the work of you and Alex and without God leading me hear, my heart would still be lost in the motions of every day life. i’d still be taking life for granted and not taking every moment to pour into the lives of my friends, i wouldn’t be loving the people around me, or working my hardest in everything i do for his glory. you’ve changed my life everyone on this website and especially God has changed my life. and i’m just so thankful! know i pray God would help me to take these lessons and stuff that he’s shown me and taught me to pour into the life of my brother and to help him be everything he can cause he’s struggling right know and i want to be their for him and i also want to help him fix his eyes on Christ whom i’ve come to fix my eyes on! Thank You Again Brett!!
            May God Bless!
            ~Madeleine

    • cara d

      I read it the way you said and I found it very encouraging that I’m not the only one that thinks that way. Thank you :)

      • The Raven Winked Darkly

        You’re welcome.

    • I actually read the article twice before writing my other comment, because the first time I read it I honestly did get the wrong idea. I thought you were basically saying that men and women are not differentiated scripturally, and you were implying some sort of anti-anti-feminism, or basically feminism by definition. The second time I read it, I saw a much more neutral stance, for which I applaud you. There were still some concerns I had, which I expressed, but overall I found the article to be neither feministic nor fatally anti-feministic. So again I say, good job!

      • The Raven Winked Darkly

        I tend to reflect my Swiss heritage like that. 😉

    • Madeleine Grace

      Vary good Point The Raven Winked Darkly. that is exactly what i got out of this article. and it’s true we do need to band together. Because how can one gender survive without the other? God created us to complete each other to be with each other. Each genders got a role in this world.
      ~Madeleine

      • The Raven Winked Darkly

        Right-o.

        • Madeleine Grace

          what does that mean?

          • It means she agrees. 😉

          • Madeleine Grace

            oh ok thanks 😀

  • Amanda T.

    Thank you. I like what you are saying here. It takes a lot of bravery to approach a topic that is very heated, like this one. Most people who bring it up are all about proving their view as right. We need more people who have the courage to address sticky issues with perspective and a cool head! I think you did a wonderful job with that.

    I believe the answer to the issue, like many others, is neither feminism nor anti-feminism, but somewhere in the middle. Now, I admit I have never really looked into either side of this issue, but I think I understand the general conflict. I agree with what you wrote; Jesus instructed us to love everyone. Real love is selfless and sacrificial.

    If talking/reading about this (or any other issue) makes me angry because
    you don’t agree with ME,
    I believe differently,
    MY views are more right than yours,
    and I should be able to do such-and-such…
    The whole focus is on ME, and is not showing love. Anger is rooted in claiming rights for one’s self. If we can learn to put down our pride and stop claiming rights for ourselves, but to instead approach each other humbly and consider the other as more important that ourselves, then we will be living in the love Jesus instructed us to have. And because we are focused on others and not ourselves, we will not be bickering over rights and how I should be treated because…
    life is not about ME.

    • The Raven Winked Darkly

      You’ve got it, Amanda.

    • Emma Johnston

      Actually I would disagree with you, I think it is perfectly okay to fight for ones right. People of all genders, races, ages, and sexualities should not be judged on uncontrollable factors in their lives and rather on their character. This article to me, while I think it had good intent, did not seem very researched. When August said “There is something wrong about feminism. We know that as Christians”. I was very put off and disturbed. Feminism is simply the belief that women should be equal to men on the grounds of political, social and economic equality to men. Would you say that it is wrong to advocate for people without rights. Too often I have felt that feminists are dismissed as man-haters and selfish, however all I want is for men and women to have equal pay, to stop rape culture, to stop harassment on the streets and to encourage women and men to see themselves as equal to each other. The views expressed in the Bible about women’s subservience to man come from a culture in which having multiple wives was common, and where prostitutes and adulterers were stoned. Notice the theme of women’s suppression. Though I highly admire August for saying what she believes in, I also want to share my voice and that is that feminists like myself are Christians too, and everyone deserves equal rights. That being said I do think that feminists who veer off the path into misandry are not right either and I want to know that I am trying to show a different opinion than you in a graceful way. I hope you can accept that.
      Thank you,
      Emma (15 years old)

  • alana

    It reads in Genesis 2:18 that God created Eve to be a helper for Adam. See how it doesn’t say ‘someone that man can use to meet his ends’ or ‘someone with certain advantages that looks down on man.’ Both genders were created to balance each other out, man with the strength to fight and woman with the heart to encourage him throughout their lives. Best example of this was Emperor Justinian and his wife Theodora. It’s quite a tale. But it can go either way. In Judges 4, two women were used by God to give victory to the Israelites. God has used women countless times in the Bible, but it seems like everyone looks at the front line instead of the backstage.

  • Evelyn

    This article completely misses the difference between feminism and radical feminism, not to mention the fact that street harassment, classroom privilege, and body image are discussed way more in feminist activism than things like door-opening. I’ve always loved The Rebelution but you guys really let me down this time. “Thorough research,” indeed… We’ll give peace a chance when I can go to work fully and modestly clothed and have someone stand up for me rather than passively standing by when I’m groped while refilling tea glasses. When I’m not fat shamed for having natural curves. When rape victims weren’t “asking for it.” THAT is when we will give peace a chance.

    • The Raven Winked Darkly

      Again, you’re simply not understanding what the srtical is about. It’s not about anti-feminism. It’s about love versus bickering. You’ll notice i didn’t go into a lot of detail describing what feminism is, or does. My research was in the Bible, not on feminism. Please read it over again.

      • Evelyn

        “There is something wrong about feminism. We know that as Christians. But sometimes we take it for granted and don’t stop to think about what it is. Just what is it that makes feminism wrong?”
        This is basically your subject paragraph, setting up the rest of your article as a dissertation on why feminism is wrong, therefore anti-feminist by definition. If your intent wasn’t anti-feminism, the article needed some pretty heavy-handed editing and re-wording to make your thesis what you intended. Sorry, but with a paragraph like the one above and my 98th percentile reading comprehension scores, I can’t find this article to not be anti-feminist no matter how many times I reread it. It IS other things besides anti-feminism, and I applaud you on those points. I agree that peace is always better than discord, but only when it is actually peace rather than voices being stifled.
        “There is something wrong about feminism” = anti-feminism. There’s no two ways about that.

        • Sadie Clements

          Evelyn, would it have made any difference to you if The Raven Winked Darkly had included in her original post the same assumption that there’s something wrong with anti-feminism and misogyny? It looks like we’re bickering about words. If your opinion is as you stated in the above comment and her opinion is how she has stated it several times in her comments, then agree to disagree and let it go. Please?

          • Evelyn

            It would have made a difference, considering that it would have completely altered her premise. If she had said, for example, “There is something wrong with feminism. As Christians, we know this. As Christians we also know there is something wrong with misogyny and anti-feminism,” that would have set up the article to be something completely different.
            Well, the article is made of words… Given that this is text based on a website about theological and cultural matters, we can’t bicker about tone or inappropriate context/content, so what else are we going to bicker about? 😉 I’m afraid I’m missing the point of that last bit. As far as agreeing to disagree, no can do- feminism is a cause near and dear to my heart and deeply seated in my life, second only to my faith and family. It would be like asking another activist to agree to disagree about abortion. I realise that that may seem self-centered, as this article pointed out, but I come at feminism like this: “If as a young woman I have experienced this much, even with all my privilege and protection, how much more are less fortunate women experiencing?” So although I am female, it’s just as much a cause about helping others as any other.
            For anyone confused about how Christianity and feminism can mesh and harmonize, I highly recommend the book “Jesus Feminist.” :)

          • The Raven Winked Darkly

            Hello. I didn’t use the exact words you said, which are very clear, and exactly what I meant. A reason I often shy away from writing articles like this is my writing style. I’m an artist. I’m one of those poets that are really almost bizarre to read. I don’t say anything outright, because I find it boorish.

          • Adrienne

            Thank you from the bottom of my heart. This article and the comments made me realize just how far many religious communities have NOT come as far as equality.

          • Evelyn, would it have made any difference to you if The Raven Winked Darkly had included in her original post the same assumption that there’s something wrong with anti-feminism and misogyny?

            so you are assuming that The Raven Winked Darkly is a female? 😉

  • tmselden

    This gender equality issue will never be resolved. Kathy the Great’s comment stating that she is a Christian, yet a supporter of gay rights flies in the face of scripture. She is obviously getting some very bad teaching. I pray that she takes some time to examine herself in light of the whole gospel and see if she really is in the faith.

    While I am a very strong vocal woman and held many leadership positions in the Christian schools and communities, I would never label myself a feminist. Feminism always comes across as getting even. Feminism is responsible for putting women under bondage to their own agenda. They are the main supporters of abortion, emasculation of men, sexuality of any form, gay marriage, degeneration of men’s God given roles and I could go on. It has been the major proponent in the failure of families. The blame goes just as well,for the men who have refused to follow God, teach their sons and daughters well, and giving in to this force we call feminism. It is in actuality rebellion towards God and nothing else.

    At the heart of all of this is man’s depravity outside of a true saving knowledge of Jesus Christ as Savior and LORD!
    This gender equality issue will never be resolved. Kathy the Great’s comment stating that she is a Christian, yet a supporter of gay rights flies in the face of scripture. She is obviously getting some very bad teaching. I pray that she takes some time to examine herself in light of the whole gospel and see if she really is in the faith.

    While I am a very strong vocal woman and held many leadership positions in the Christian schools and communities, I would never label myself a feminist. Feminism always comes across as getting even. Feminism is responsible for putting women under bondage to their own agenda. They are the main supporters of abortion, emasculation of men, sexuality of any form, gay marriage, degeneration of men’s God given roles and I could go on. It has been the major proponent in the failure of families. The blame goes just as well,for the men who have refused to follow God, teach their sons and daughters well, and giving in to this force we call feminism. It is in actuality rebellion towards God and nothing else.

    At the heart of all of this is man’s depravity outside of a true saving knowledge of Jesus Christ as Savior and LORD!

  • Ruthie

    Thank you, August, for such a well-written article! I agree that this feminism thing has been blown way out of proportion. I do believe that women should vote and have equal jobs according to ability; however, I also find it refreshing when a male opens a door or helps a lady.
    As a shout-out, So Much More by Anna Sofia and Elizabeth Botkin is a great book that deals a bit with this subject.

  • Ezra Walls

    Hey August, I just want to say I admire your courage in posting this knowing full well that it was a highly controversial subject. Way to be! Thank you for addressing this from a Biblical standpoint, that doesn’t happen much I daresay. Keep it up. Galatians 6:9

    To everyone reading this, I suggest that each person, male or female, look at what the Lord says through His revealed word, and apply it. Who read the article? Did everyone catch the Love one another part? This feminism/gender based aggravation may seem like a never ending issue, but that’s not surprising in this world- after all, it’s broken. That’s why Jesus came, people. Obey His commands and don’t worry about the world’s views if they don’t match up. He told men how to act, he told women how to act. Each of us is responsible for himself (OR HERSELF). Like August said, don’t let this be a red herring, a distractor from the stuff that is really important.

    In Christ,
    Ezra

  • Regardless of certain comments in which people expressed negative opinions on this post, I enjoyed it vastly. I don’t mean to offend anyone, however, I’m pretty sure the rebelution was set up in order for Christians of this generation to express thoughts and opinions on a variety of different matters and to give us the opportunity to uplift and encourage our fellow brothers and sisters in Christ. If you’re against promoting peace between the sexes, (esp. in regards to fellow Christians), I wouldn’t know why you would want to be on this website anyway. Honestly, there was no reason for anyone to be offended by an article promoting peace. But, if you were, you shouldn’t take that out on the author. She was expressing her opinion, just as you are free to express yours. If you were bothered by that fact, there’s no call to try and tear her apart for it. Rather, congratulate her on her boldness to stand up for her beliefs and convictions and take up your problems with God.

    • Renee

      Yeah Abby your right!!!

  • Hey August! Like others said, I appreciate you opening up this conversation on how we as Christians should interact with culture about gender issues.

    I am a little bit confused, though, about what you’re saying. First of all, you mention how gender roles are only mentioned in a handful of Scriptural passages and that donkeys are mentioned more. Are you somehow saying that in God’s economy, donkeys are more important than gender roles? I believe that gender is a theme that God has woven from the beginning of Genesis throughout the entire Bible, fundamental to who God created us to be. Would you disagree?

    Second, do you not believe that gender is a gospel issue? I believe that God creating us as male and female is so important to the gospel that we can’t afford to simply remain silent in the face of culture’s attack on traditional gender roles.

    I know that this is a massive issue in culture today and I believe that as Christians, we have a responsibility to engage our culture about it in a way that speaks the truth in love. I don’t think we can afford to stop the gender wars. Culture won’t stop them. And just as we can’t afford to stop culture wars on other anti-biblical ideologies, I don’t believe Christians should shrink back from the gender wars. Rather, we should engage in them for the glory of God and stand up for the truth of God’s Word.

    Thanks again, August.

    • The Raven Winked Darkly

      Ha, ha. The comment about donkeys was meant to be toungue-in-cheek. What I’m saying that people use their differing veiws–their often very slightly differing veiws of gender roles to start petty fights between people they should be standing by in a time like this. I’m saying we shouldn’t be reactionary, but always keeping our focus on the love of Jesus Christ, and imitating him.
      Gender is fundamental, and should not be ignored. It’s a beautiful thing, but not when it turns into a blind, self-seeking fight. Gender wars, arguements between the sexes about who’s going to get to be the leader, or the dominant ruler, or whatever, is just like asking who’s going to be the greatest in the kindom of heaven.
      Reacting or over-reacting to the secular culture won’t get us anywhere. We have to show them the peace we have amoung ourselves. Our ultimate task is to point the lost to God, not to get everything right.
      Does that make sense?

      • Thanks for clarifying, August. I absolutely agree that gender is a fundamental, beautiful thing and that our goal should be to point the lost to God. That makes sense!

        God bless. :)

    • Adrienne

      “Traditional” racial roles revolve around slavery. That makes it totally ok, right? /s

      Just because something’s been done one way for hundreds of years doesn’t mean it has to. You’re using a computer/mobile device that was unheard of a century ago, does that make it wrong? Sometimes change is a good thing. Changing traditional gender roles is a good thing.

  • Great article, August! (By the way, really cool name. :) ) You made some really good points. And I basically agree with where you’re coming from. Feminism may be bad, but so can polarized anti-feminism. I just want to throw in a couple things for thought:

    1) We shouldn’t conclude that the issue doesn’t matter. Scripture definitely has some things to say about the roles of men and women, but scripture also says to avoid divisive disputes (see 2 Timothy 2:14). Basically, we should try to help others to see what is right, but if they continually reject it, drop the issue. It’s not worth losing them. Still, this does not mean that the issue isn’t important.

    2) Don’t pursue peace so much that you forsake love. Paul says that whenever it is possible, live at peace with others (Romans 12:18). Jesus did not come to bring peace (Luke 12:51). Love is not equal to peace. I just went over this with the Sr. High class this past Sunday. Love requires that we hate what is evil (Romans 12:9), and rebuke others gently (Galatians 6:1). So as it relates to this issue, peace is not our main goal. Love is. We certainly must try to have peace, but we can’t completely love until we ascertain just where the Bible stands.

    Whether or not you had that view, it’s important that we understand these things before we delve into the details. Again, really good article!

    • The Raven Winked Darkly

      We’re on the same page, Nathan. The issue of gener is important and worthy of study, but it’s also a mystery. I’d say it’s important to be humble while dealing in mystery. We can’t fight each other over something we really can’t claim to understand ourselves.
      And two, this artical is definately more about love than peace. The peace-rally theme was to contrast the so-called “war” between the sexes.
      Thanks for the discussion.

      • Great! I would suggest that the Bible doesn’t leave the gender issue as a mystery. Some of the details, perhaps, but we can understand the issue as a whole. There is a right stance, and you can find it in scripture. Some good passages to ponder are Galatians 3:28, Proverbs 31, Ephesians 5, 1 Timothy 2, Titus 2, and plenty of others. Good to know we’re on the same page. :)

  • Grier Belter

    a point that I think this article missed, not all feminists are women, and feminism isn’t “look what they are doing to us” it’s “look what we (as the whole human race) are doing to ourselves”. Feminism is trying to confront some terrible things in this world (male gaze, rape culture) and I know for a fact that these things exist, i’ve seen it. Feminism has just lost its way, and the solutions it strives for are niether right, nor will they make the changes needed

  • Adrienne

    I don’t think you understand feminism. It’s not “he held the door open for me, doesn’t he know I’m a strong capable woman who can do that for myself?” Feminism is about equality. I don’t think men should have a free pass to objectify women and verbally (or physically) harass them in the streets. I believe it’s wrong for guys to look at me like I’m adorable when I try and join in a conversation about history. Young boys should not be told to man up when they show natural emotion. People should never think that a girl had it coming for her if she was raped while wearing a short skirt. I shouldn’t be told I can’t handle something just because I’m a girl.

    People are complex and unique. That’s my issue with gender roles. Not all women are suited to staying home and raising kids. Not all men know how to fix a car. The equality movement (I’ll call it that since people seem to run from the word feminism) is about removing those types of gender roles. I’m Adrienne, nice to meet you. I’m not a certain personality just because I’m a woman. To me, feminism is about respecting all people and not generalizing them into two basic categories.

    • The Raven Winked Darkly

      This is not about anti-feminism. This is about not getting all offended. I agree that women should not be raped or harassed or turned into objects. I agree that people are unique and should not be put in boxes. But that isn’t what I wrote this article about. I wrote it saying that feminists and anti-feminists should stop worrying that somebody might be mistreating them and focus on Jesus Christ.

      • Adrienne

        I understand that and respect your article. However, it is something to worry about, because women (and men) are getting raped and harassed and it needs to stop. It’s never happened to me and it hopefully won’t happen to you but it happens to as many as 1 in 3 women

        Yes, both sides should stop arguing. But I very strongly disagree if you’re telling people to stop fighting for human rights. I know I’m the minority here ut im really not trying to sound like a crazy kid begging for someone to offend me. Please don’t take what I’m about to say in an accusatory manner, but why aren’t you asking pro-lifers and pro-choices to quit acting like they’re being mistreated?

        • The Raven Winked Darkly

          Actually, I’m not telling people to stop fighting for human rights. I’m saying they shouldn’t be doing it out of their own interests, but the interests of others.

          • Adrienne

            First of all, thank you replying to so many comments so respectfully.
            In respect to the abortion debate compared to women’s rights, I don’t see as much of a difference as you do. I’VE never been raped but I’m fighting for OTHERS who have and who will.
            You are saying feminism (and everything else that is wrong, if I understand correctly) is wrong because it takes focus off God and loving others and on to self. Fair enough. But feminism shouldn’t fall into that category, because feminism is not about self, it’s about humanity. I understand what you’re saying, August, I just think it’s very misguided.

          • The Raven Winked Darkly

            No, you don’t understand what I’m saying. What I address in this article is petty feminism and the petty anti-feminism. I’m not talking about rape. I’m talking about “he” verses “he or she.” Taking offence when you have to really dig stuff up to be offended at.
            The people one the anti-feminism side that I am referring to in this article are not rapists or women haters. I’m just talking about people who take offence when women wear jeans instead of skirts.
            In both cases, I’m referring to people who are always assuming that what other people do is “at” them. Fighting when there isn’t really a fight. I’m not talking about obvious evil, like rape or abortion, I’m taking about things Christians might do thinking their right and getting upset at other people who didn’t even mean to hurt them.
            Now do you see?

  • Louis Gervais

    ‘Can We STOP The Gender Wars?’

    A title like THAT got me curious to read the article! And
    I wasn’t disappointed. Several things: in essence, I think I agree with the
    author. You made an excellent point in saying that chivalry originally referred
    to one’s enemies. I didn’t know that. After reading your article I now know I’m
    therefore supposed to open doors for feminists :vD Just, um, kidding. There is
    one small point on which I disagree with the author (I know, it was an appeal
    for peace, and here I am disagreeing) “There’s only a handful of verses of the
    subject of gender-roles. Actually, the Bible says more about donkeys.” NAS
    about donkeys: 140 mentions, NIV: 142 mentions (where they got the extra two
    donkeys, no one knows), but I would think that the Bible says more about gender
    roles than that. NIV for husband: 128, for wife: 325, wives: 107 mentions. But
    it depends on how you define gender roles, because I would say, based on the
    words chosen, “gender roles,” it contains much more than marriage: father:
    1,103, mother: 103, brother: 584, sister: 276. And personally, I would include ‘young
    men’ (74) as they went out to war (I see the U.S. is sort of confused on that
    point these days) and “young women” (25), not to mention mentions of “men” (1,027)
    or “women” (239) nor “marriage” (47) or “grandmother” (4) or “grandfather” (3),
    “grandson” (15) and so on and so forth. Now, I realize that not all of these
    mentions have to do with defining roles of gender—however—I would mention that
    most of the mentions of donkeys don’t have anything to do with the defining
    roles of donkeys. =v)

    Anyway, it was a fun article to read =vD Thanks! (Sorry,
    I know that I’ve just engaged in “hair-splitting” which the article warned
    against).

    Oh! And to the rhetorical question posed early in the
    article: “Well, what makes anything wrong?” The answer is—whether something is
    right or wrong depends on the character of God. Lying? Wrong. Why? God is the
    God of truth? Lack of love (like you mentioned)? Wrong. Why? God is Love. And
    so on.

    Thanks again!

    • Louis Gervais

      P.S. Dear August, I posted my reply just as some thoughts which came to mind when I read your article. I then read some of the other comments and thought to say: don’t get discouraged by some of the comments or misunderstandings; sometimes a great article is one which gets people thinking and talking. So, take courage, and keep on writing for the honor and glory of God. And sorry that I was nitpicky =v)

      • The Raven Winked Darkly

        You’re fine. Thanks for reading.

  • Meg

    This was a well written and thoughtful article, but the discussion which has ensued really amuses me… because in large part it is all the bickering and name calling and making of sweeping generalizations that the author wants us to forget about in the name of what’s really important.

    And I say this as someone who considers herself to be a feminist. However, the word “feminist” is probably one of the most inflammatory words in the Christian dictionary these days, and rightly so; because the word has come to take on a lot of bad meanings for a lot of people. For me, being a feminist is about equality. It means that I should not be pressured to marry at a young age or bear children because it is more “godly” than following a different and equally valuable life calling (mine is music). It means that a woman gets to make decisions about her own body. It is *NOT* about being better than men, being bitter, or getting angry when they open the door for us. It is nice to be shown respect, and that sort of humble and gentle attitude is what we all owe each other as citizens of the earth. I think that is partly what the author is getting at, even though I doubt she would identify as a feminist because of the extreme negative associations with that word.

    So thanks for suggesting, shockingly, that we don’t really have to argue over what shouldn’t be an issue. Jesus showed radical love to women who were treated far more poorly in His time on earth than in ours. He also showed radical love to men. He showed the same, equal, life-changing grace to all regardless of race and gender. That matters most.

    • The Raven Winked Darkly

      Hey, thanks Meg. I like that you noticed that the conversations about this artical are an example of exactly what I was speaking out against. (I’m a musician too, that’s cool.)

  • acha648

    Then when women compromise on God’s word ( treat men badly, abort their kids, abandon their kids for work/ have a usurping heart) we are supposed to stop standing for the bible or what the bible says and come to some middle ground in the name of love?!!

    See a big double standard here, ( unless there is an article on here that says we need to stop critiquing men who ignore the bible- but I could not find one)

    I am glad men like John piper etc stand clear on what the bible says on Gender, and I’d argue the Genesis 1-3 alone has more to say on Gender than the entire bible does on donkeys!!

    I understand how this would come about though are society is so used to critiquing men and totally against saying anything negative about women, but pretty sure the bible is not that way..

    On the other hand if the whole point was, those who stand for the bible need to be loving about conveying their positions etc that seems good.

    • The Raven Winked Darkly

      It’s interesting how depending on where people stand on the gender issues, they can take this article to mean two totally opposite things.
      This is not a pro-feminist article. (I am absolutely pro-life and would never renounce that argument.) This is not about feminism or anti-feminism. This is about not always seeing yourself as the victim, and someone who’s being badly treated. It isn’t even an article about gender-roles!
      By the way, I’m the author.

      • acha648

        Wow thanks for the reply!!
        No you were not being pro feminist, you want to stop the “Gender wars”

        I was just pointing out the NO ONE says lets stop the “Gender wars” when it is men not following the bible and abusing women, not protecting providing etc…

        That is why the difference in treating men and women? I was curious.. so any thoughts?
        Also one does not have to be a feminist to critique men for their actions…

        If it came out that I thought you were being pro feminist, I am sorry and no I do not think you were being pro feminist, regardless of my position.

        • The Raven Winked Darkly

          I’m not fully understanding you. Can you re-phrase?

          • acha648

            Well your article was responding to the whole feminist vs anti- feminists discussion
            Wondering if you are going to write the same article for the anti abusive patriarchy vs pro abusive/harsh dominating male group discussion.

            i.e are you going to treat men who ignore God’s word in the same way as you are treating women who do so with this article. ( are you going to call for ” love one another” to men who rape, abuse etc like you do so for women to abort – feminists etc)
            Keeping in kind that Jesus also rebuked individuals.

            Hope you understood!!

          • acha648

            no one ever calls to stop the Gender wars when it comes to critiquing men
            but when women fall short of the bible all of a sudden we need to stop the gender wars an “love one another”

            i.e why are you treating women( anti child anti male etc) who revolt against God’s word differently to men( bash women , abuse etc) who do so

  • Madeleine Grace

    Dear Emma,
    It’s ok a lot of people spell it wrong :) i don’t know why i’m ok with it but i am. i believe that men should be payed more in some cases then women because they have a family to provide for. and as for the gay thing i don’t think they should get any special treatment just because they are different from us. Gayness shouldn’t be criminalized but they don’t need special rights either. And i also think being gay is a sin. but that’s just what i believe. Because God tells us in the bible explicitly that he detests it. But i’m not saying that i will hate those who are gay. Because you have to hate the sin and love the sinner in a lot of different aspects of life. i may not agree or like Obama but i still love him because God has called all of us to love everyone. so yeah. i understand your viewpoint i do i’m not trying to persuade you to change it or anything i’m just telling what i believe. i might be failing in not coming across judgmental if i am i’m so sorry that’s not how i want to come across. 😉 and you don’t have to clarify i understand :)
    God Bless You!!
    ~Madeleine

    • Adrienne

      Could you please provide SPECIFIC examples of gays getting special rights?

      • Madeleine Grace

        well for one the marriage thing. i don’t see the problem with them getting married under regular regulations. why do they have to get a special bill to get married? I’m sorry if I’ve offended you. I truly didn’t mean to.
        God Bless,
        Madeleine

  • Adrienne

    Hey, can I just say your post is awesome?

  • Beth

    Hey August!
    This was a good post, I particularly loved what you said about Chivalry. “Chivalry” is irrelevant and never existed in the way people think it did!
    It is true this post could be taken as a little bit anti-feminist. I don’t really think it’s fair to group all feminists together and stereo-type them (I’m not saying you did, some of the comments…)…just like we as Christians hate being judged like that.
    For anyone who is interested in this topic I’d definitely recommend watching Emma Watson’s UN speech, she speaks quite excellently.
    Beth
    P.S I love your bio August, it’s really quite funny!

    • The Raven Winked Darkly

      Thank you, Beth!

  • Allie Blue

    Ya know, I couldn’t agree with you more. How come there has to be so much fighting and sadly a lot of it is on the womans part. And you’re absolutely right when you say that there is something wrong with feminisim because there is. I do not like it at all and in my opinion it really gives women a bad name .There is really no need for feminisim .Thank you for addressing this the way you did. God Bless

  • Emmy

    For me, feminism isn’t about bringing women into supremacy or even just about getting equal rights. It is about giving both men and women the freedom to be themselves and develope their very specific gifts. Feminism is for gender equality (at least the way I see it.) People should not be judged by gender. I think once we help fix this issue, we can serve God as a community and work with each other a whole lot better. I do, however, deffinitely see some major issues in the way women are perceived and treated, but I see the same with males. However, you are right. We shouldn’t obsess over the smallest details, but it is an issue that is important and shouldn’t be disreguaded bacause some people take it too far.

  • I know I’m posting late on this but I think we need to look back in the Bible for this one. In the Bible it states, “Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord.” This does not mean women are less then men. That is false. God created everyone equal. God has plans for everyone and sometimes men will be assigned different roles then women. I am not saying for instance that men can’t do household chores and women can’t be leaders. I’m just saying that God has plans for all of us, and it’s not our right to try to change them.

  • Matthew M.

    Men and women have their own, unique, special, God-given roles. When we fulfill them, God is glorified and we rejoice.

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